CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)

(3979 posts)
  • Started 9 years ago by I were right about that saddle
  • Latest reply from LaidBack

  1. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @chdot

    It's perfectly obvious.

    The EU is;

    1) Voluntary, with written rules for joining and leaving
    2) Equal, in that all members have the same rights
    3) Transparent, in that there are publicly declared contributions and benefits

    The UK of GB&NI is;

    1) Involuntary except for Scotland in 2014
    2) Unequal in that England's politicians naturally decide what the other regions can and can't do
    3) Opaque in regards to contributions and benefits

    It therefore stands to reason that if leaving the first is difficult, leaving the second must be infinitely harder. Surely anyone can see the obvious parallels?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  2. LaidBack
    Member

    Separatism is a perjorative word. I just look at Scotland governing itself as logical. I wouldn't let someone else (Halfords!) run my business. Even if it allegedly had more borrowed money.

    We are allegedly equal partners in the United Kingdom. If Scotland leaves it is no longer that. Royals are going out of fashion anyway...

    Posted 3 years ago #
  3. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    It looks like Gibraltar has also fallen under the sway of separatist rhetoric. A Frenchman entering Gibr Al Tariq will not present a passport whilst a Briton shall be so obliged to enter his own Queen's realm.

    It is Gibraltar's sacred duty to heed the voices of its 823 Leave voters and take the consequences along with the motherland.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  4. wingpig
    Member

    "...remain or leave..." unfortunately pointed directly at Article 50, to those unfortunately in charge of the interpretation and implementation. "Should Scotland be an independent country?" would express an intent and start discussions of the means to achieve it, but not immediately press any big red buttons.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  5. jss
    Member

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of how the matrimony was entered into , divorce will be messy and painful but at least the lawyers will benefit as usual

    Posted 3 years ago #
  6. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    That's right. And the divorce will be even messier and more painful than the Irish divorce (99 years of pain and counting) due to the inherent awfulness of Scotland. At least Ireland has a certain wayward charm. What do we have?

    I don't know why this isn't more widely understood.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  7. crowriver
    Member

    "At least Ireland has a certain wayward charm. What do we have?"

    Miserable introspection, crippling self doubt, and a canny knack for tugging of forelocks, perchance?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  8. gembo
    Member

    Whae’s like us? Damn few and they’re aw deid?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  9. LaidBack
    Member

    inherent awfulness of Scotland. 
    Miserable introspection, crippling self doubt,

    Anyone want to add to the list? :-)

    The self governing project should have nothing to do with ethnic characteristics.
    Is it not the case that we are seeing more 'new Scots'. I doubt they are moving here because they seek awfulness or self doubt.
    Some must surely be attracted by something we have. Spending per head is £2k more than rUK so maybe they want that? ;-) Of course we are allegedly the highest taxed nation in UK although if you like pre-paid medicine and education then you can get some back.
    (I'm sure spending per head and subsidies to London are 'quite high' too but GERS is designed to load debt north and allocate tax from whisky eg to London's income.)
    For those that just want to live in an Anglo-British style in Scotland there are few differences - apart from the legal system and having a Scottish tax code. You can read the right wing papers and watch BBC24. Scottish shoppers support businesses HQd in England like Sainsburys, Tescos etc.

    If you have a preference to be governed by BJ or KS then you can be sure of support from most media. Personally I find these options hopeless. Museum of Parliament only has one green MP too so want to stay clear of that.

    Rather have an imperfect parliament with more powers here. Scottish incompetence might not be world leading but it will represent what 'we' vote for (yes, BiFAB, CalMac ferries etc are all bad).
    All countries have 'disaster' projects - ask Swedes about the rail tunnel that took 10 years to build or a Dane about the library with a leak in Copenhagen.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  10. jss
    Member

    Could add a wonderful talent for harbouring and nurturing grudges and grievances for many thousands of years to the list . World leaders ?
    I have also always pined for some of that endearing dourness when cycling abroad in Southern Europe and been subjected to prolonged periods of unwarranted cheerfulness from the natives.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

  12. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @jss

    An excellent addition to the list. Scotland is plagued with grudges, some of which date back to the late neolithic, let alone the early medieval grudge that brought our 'country' into existence, temporarily deviating from its natural role as a blighted northern region of a greater British and Irish entity.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  13. gembo
    Member

    I quite like being Scottish. You can ply Europeans with whisky and they will happily drink it. Spanish for Justerini and Brooks is Jota Bey

    Quite good at engineering
    Not bad at empiricism
    Strong with trade union work
    Patrick Geddes was a dude
    Mary Slessor had grit
    Brian Cox is great in Rushmore when he shouts FISCHER
    John Byrne is a colossus
    Gray, Kelman, Lochhead and Leonard
    Rat catcher director good (Lynn Ramsay)
    Several good universities
    University Cafe also good
    We are good at pubs when they can open
    Bar room philosophy we won many Olympic Golds for.
    I have a Sevillan pen pal who is trying not to remember the midges of Glen Affric

    Posted 3 years ago #
  14. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Just look at these faces, twisted and disfigured by the effort of concealing the pile of rotting grievance behind their eyes!

    Takeouthistext[i]

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    Posted 3 years ago #
  15. gembo
    Member

    @iwrats, that does not work pon my laptop

    but thisdoes

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    Posted 3 years ago #
  16. LaidBack
    Member

    Enough frivolity! Step forward Richard Leonard...

    LABOUR are split over backing an extension to the Brexit transition period with Richard Leonard wanting talks to continue to avoid crashing out without a deal next week – while Sir Keir Starmer does not.

    The Scottish Labour leader supports Nicola Sturgeon's call for discussions to progress into next year in a bid to find a new trade arrangement to prevent further disruption in the midst of the pandemic.

    But while UK Labour are opposed to No Deal, the party leader has come out against an extension.

    Starmer said this week: “I don’t want an extension, I want a deal.”

    He added: “And just delaying it further isn’t going to help with the great uncertainty there already is for businesses. So, I say to the Prime Minister, get on and deliver the deal that you promised.

    “Get on and deliver it this week, today, tomorrow, and then we can recall parliament and deal with it.”

    Posted 3 years ago #
  17. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    How do these clowns think they're going to scrutinise 2,000 pages of techno-babble in a week? And what do they think they're going to do if they find something they don't like?

    The regime has got the UK of GB&NI over a great big smouldering barrel of dynamite.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  18. 14Westfield
    Member

    Legislators on both sides will not be scrutinising whatever is agreed: they will simply rubber stamp what is sent down by thier masters.

    Worth considering if that was part of the plan after all.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  19. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    The London parliament can be whipped but I'm not sure the European parliament will roll over for a tummy-rub. They've no reason to sign up for stuff that's not in their voters' interests.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    Speaking on BFM TV on Wednesday, France’s Europe minister, Clément Beaune, said he was concerned by what the incident had revealed about Britain’s preparedness for an eventual no deal in ongoing Brexit talks.

    “If there is a no deal there will be more checks and we are ready for that,” he said. “But we are worried by preparations on the British side of the Channel. When you see what’s happening there, the level of preparedness is not really great.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/23/lorry-drivers-clash-police-tensions-rise-over-queues-kent

    Posted 3 years ago #
  21. crowriver
    Member

    Diplomatic understatement if ever I saw one.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  22. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    It's not just preparations for a chaotic end to the withdrawal agreement. They're not even ready for the implications of any deal they impose on the country. Logistics, software and personnel all inadequate.

    This may be a mistake or it may be a way of training us for the arbitrary decisions and disorder they hope to impose in future.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

  24. LaidBack
    Member

    Phantom Power new film Beyond Brexit.
    Sign in on HopIn.
    Professionally done - not dour or grudging in the least. Next generation are far more outward looking. Scotland allows lower voting age - something Westminster haven't done yet

    Repeated at 9pm.
    https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1341770878082801664?s=20

    Posted 3 years ago #
  25. jss
    Member

    Slightly concerned about this ,as all the missiles and abuse hurled at me from educational instutions on my recumbent jaunts come from that age group . I wonder what sort of governance they would vote for?

    Reverting to the non brexit thread of national virtues,there are of course many wonderful Caledonian ones, not perhaps “joie de vivre “(merci monsieur Johnny Knox)!
    But of all the nations I know, I would much rather:
    Trust my life to a Scots medical man/woman
    Have my affairs sorted by a good Scots advocate
    Drive safely over a bridge built by Scottish engineers
    Be defended in battle by good Scots sodgers ( “devils in skirts” as the Germans called them)
    Drink whisky distilled by a Scotch Man
    And when I slippit awa ,be laid in ma deid kist by a grim, gray faced Scots undertaker

    Posted 3 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    A post-Brexit trade deal looks imminent, but No 10 says its 'far from certain' it will be done today

    https://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-trade-deal-done-reports-5310086-Dec2020/

    Posted 3 years ago #
  27. jss
    Member

    Could all be cod’s wallop

    Posted 3 years ago #
  28. LaidBack
    Member

    @jss - a good listing of Scottish exceptionalism!

    Cod's wallop, yes - but whatever is happening the speculators will be landing a tidy catch.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  29. crowriver
    Member

    Let's not forget even with a deal, this is Hard Brexit.

    No single market (except for tariff free access for most goods).
    No customs union.
    No deal on services yet (75% of the UK economy).
    No freedom of movement.
    Border in the Irish Sea.
    Possibly no Erasmus.
    Visa required for any stay in EU longer than 90 days.
    Permits required for business travel.
    Permits required for hauliers, and anyone else planning to drive in the EU.

    Some of these latter just theoretical at the moment as you cannot travel to most EU countries without proof of a recent negative Coronavirus test.

    It's not as grim as No Deal, but it's still really grim.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  30. minus six
    Member

    a dance to the tune of economic decline

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    Posted 3 years ago #

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