Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)

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Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)

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Started 8 years ago by I were right about that saddle
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crowriver
Member

(This Friday)

European Greens to gather in Scotland against Brexit

Greens from Germany to Poland are coming to Glasgow to help Scotland retain full EU membership
THE EUROPEAN Green Party (EGP) will hold its 25th council meeting in Glasgow where Green MSPs, MEPs and European politicians will discuss Scotland’s place in Europe following the Brexit vote in June.

Billed as Scotland’s largest pro-European gathering since the UK’s vote to leave the EU on June 23, the event will be attended by Scottish Greens’ co-convener Patrick Harvie and First Minister Nicola Sturgeon who have both held a hardline on Scotland's membership of the single market.

German MEP and European Green Reinhard Bütikofer has also expressed his view that Europeans should do all they can to “resist Brexit” and aid Scotland in its pro-EU intentions.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9937/european-greens-gather-scotland-against-brexit

Posted 7 years ago #
I were right about that saddle
Member

@crowriver

Could be the excuse I've never had to cycle to Glasgow?

Posted 7 years ago #
Frenchy
Member

Greens from Germany to Poland

Odd choice of countries to use there.

Posted 7 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38178486

The Liberal Democrats have caused a major upset in the Richmond Park by-election, overturning a 23,015 majority to oust ex-Tory MP Zac Goldsmith.

Mr Goldsmith stood as an independent after leaving the Conservative Party in protest at the government's decision to back a third Heathrow runway.

But Lib Dem Sarah Olney, who is also opposed to Heathrow expansion, fought the campaign on the issue of Brexit.

Labour's Christian Wolmar lost his £500 deposit as he trailed a distant third.

Ms Olney polled 20,510 votes to Mr Goldsmith's 18,638.

Posted 7 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Ah but did the voters vote against Heathrow or Zac or Theresa or Brexit or just the establishment that has left them behind...

Posted 7 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

I'm not sure a vote for the Lib Dems counts as a vote against the establishment.

Certainly not in Richmond Park.

Not sure how Fenton the dog voted.

Dog's Brexit.

Posted 7 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"Not sure how Fenton the dog voted."

Early and often.

He would have run between polling stations

Posted 7 years ago #
I were right about that saddle
Member

So no general election before Article 50 is(n't) triggered. The current crop of MPs must vote without the help of new individual mandates. I wouldn't want to be a Remain-leaning MP for a Leave constituency for all the tea in Waitrose.

Posted 7 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"

I have a mandate to vote against Article 50 - Olney

"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-38116988

Posted 7 years ago #
ih
Member

I have spent a considerable part of the last four days watching the proceedings in the Supreme Court, either in the court itself or on television. Whatever one's view of Brexit, I don't think you could fail to be impressed at the way this constitutional question has been addressed. Although the hearing was rarified and difficult to follow, the erudition and courtesy displayed by all the advocates and justices was very impressive to behold. There are times when I feel it an honour to be part of the British family, and this was one of them.

Posted 7 years ago #
I were right about that saddle
Member

@ih

Indeed. Let's hope that British decorum reigns in the streets too.

Posted 7 years ago #
LaidBack
Member
'Letters page' The National, Saturday 10th December
Posted 7 years ago #
LaidBack
Member

Amid the eternal questions and themes of 'which country are we getting back?' and 'everyone else needs us more than we need them' Nicola Sturgeon has put out 'proposals to keep Scotland inside the European single market after Brexit.'
https://stv.tv/news/politics/1376207-sturgeon-reveals-proposals-for-scotland-following-brexit/

Ross Greer, the (Scottish Green) party's external affairs spokesman, said: "This work from the Scottish Government is the most detailed plan on any element of Brexit published anywhere on these islands.

"That being said, while Greens accept that few options remain available to Scotland, this represents a huge compromise on the government's part. The reality is that just under two in three people in Scotland voted to stay in the European Union and the options presented today fall well short of that.

"Indeed, this compromise would probably result in around 40,000 lost jobs and a £1,000 drop in average wages in Scotland.

"These plans are the maximum limit of compromise, so if the Westminster government fails to accept them, it will signal clearly that Scotland's interests and wishes are to be ignored completely. This would be an act of contempt that would likely end the UK's fragile union."

Other parties were more critical as they have to balance how to appeal outside of Scotland (ie to the 'country' or 'rest of the country' depending on how you view the UK). My take is that it's going to be a Great British Bodge Up and the winner will be the party that can bodge best for Britain. People outside this consensus can expect a rough ride (Scots, Irish, EU Nationals, Gibraltarians etc).

Posted 7 years ago #
I were right about that saddle
Member

These are the Scottish Government's proposals in full;

http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0051/00512073.pdf

I'd be surprised if anyone above junior pen-pusher in HMG actually reads them, but the dance has to be danced and we have to watch the dance being danced.

Posted 7 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"

FoE Scotland welcomes ‘Scotland’s Place in Europe’ proposals
20 December 2016

Commenting on the Scottish Government’s paper “Scotland’s Place in Europe,” Dr Richard Dixon, Director of Friends of the Earth Scotland, said:

“We welcome these proposals from the Scottish Government, which clearly put protecting our environment and co-operation on reducing climate change emissions at the heart of Scotland’s position on Europe.

“If we really are embarking on the risky adventure of leaving the EU then this is a good set of proposals which safeguard many of the benefits of our current European membership including environmental protections, free movement of people and consumer rules that protect us from harmful chemicals in food and other products.

“The vote to leave the EU is a huge challenge to decades of progress on improving the environment and working together to tackle climate change. The Scottish Government has already made welcome commitments to maintain current environmental protections and to continue to work together on climate change, and these are strongly re-inforced in these proposals and in today's statements from the First Minister.”

"

http://www.foe-scotland.org.uk/node/2221

Posted 7 years ago #
LaidBack
Member

Just heard Willie Rennie chiming in with Kez and Ruth. Sounds like there is no way that any measure suggested in this proposal could be supported by them. There must be something of value - surely?
I've read some of it and it sounds quite well argued to me with submissions from Education and Industry. But as T May says we can't have one part of the UK having any 'special advantage' over the rest. That could alter economics and have companies moving investment here.
Message is 'Scotland has already had plenty 'special opt outs' of the UK consensus in the past. Just as UK had 'special opt outs' of the EU and now wants a deal on leaving terms?
With all these contradictions it's no wonder T May is looking stressed.

Posted 7 years ago #
I were right about that saddle
Member

Response to the Scottish Government's Brexit proposals from one of our MEPs;

http://www.ianduncan.org.uk/index.php/site/article/reaction_to_the_publication_of_scotlands_place_in_europe

Essentially 'none of this is helpful to the UK as a whole and therefore all of it is unwelcome'.

Posted 7 years ago #
Morningsider
Member

IWRATS - if I'm reading this right, the main problem would be that Scotland would need a "hard border" with England as it wouldn't be in the EEA, but Scotland would.

Interesting...and exactly the opposite argument being made by one T. May with regards brexit and the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

So, which one is it Tories? You better watch, or people might get the idea that you really haven't thought this through...

Details: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-should-not-lead-to-a-hard-border-may-tells-ni-executive-1.2834101

Posted 7 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"would need a "hard border" with England as it wouldn't be in the EEA, but Scotland would"

Quite.

Of course part of it is about the law.

It seems certain that a border in Ireland is against the Good Friday Agreement.

An English/Scottish border may or may not be outlawed by devolution agreements.

Posted 7 years ago #
I were right about that saddle
Member

@Morningsider

Exactly so. The Irish Sea appears to now function as a moral, legal and political mirror.

Posted 7 years ago #
I were right about that saddle
Member

It's always interesting to hear the views of former MPs, released from the strictures of party discipline;

http://labourhame.com/scotlands-place-in-europe/

Posted 7 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"It's always interesting to hear the views of former MPs, released from the strictures of party discipline;"

Well yes, though he is still a member of the UK Labour Party (not using "UK" in a 'rude' way, but to what extent there is a Scottish Party and to what extent Scotland residing members are subject to Kezia is never wholly clear).

I'm afraid (not unique to Lab) there are people for the whom 'the Party' (and doing others down) is more important than people or country/nation.

"

Now, some of the more excitable voices in Scottish Labour have suggested I am naïve in being prepared to take the Scottish government’s proposals seriously. Nicola Sturgeon has only put them forward in the knowledge they will be rejected, it is suggested, and that when that happens it will give her more powerful ammunition for a second independence referendum. That might be a fair criticism if the proposals were outrageously absurd. But the response from neutral and informed commentators (see, for example, http://www.europeanfutures.ed.ac.uk/article-4490 ) is that they are certainly worth examining. If they are workable, they would certainly be a lot better for Scotland than being outside the EU, or the UK – or both.

"

Posted 7 years ago #
LaidBack
Member

That might be a fair criticism if the proposals were outrageously absurd.

Yes.
The proposals were meant to go from our corner of the island to T May for her consideration.
Three other Scottish parties shot them down to save T May having a look!

I assume they are happy to get any old fudge suggested by her? Or are they going to have a go themselves?

Posted 7 years ago #
I were right about that saddle
Member

Or are they going to have a go themselves?

As I understand it Ms Davidson proposes accepting the arrangement imposed on the UK, Ms Dugdale proposes transforming the United Kingdom into a federation of nations and regions and Mr Rennie proposes not exiting the EU.

The first at least has the merit of being achievable without widespread violence.

Posted 7 years ago #
I were right about that saddle
Member

Some light relief from Mr George Galloway, spurning the chance to talk about the post-Brexit border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland.

For some mysterious reason he also believes Hadrian's Wall not to be wholly in England.

Posted 7 years ago #
unhurt
Member

Probably confusing it with the Antonine Wall. That happens a LOT.

Posted 7 years ago #
chdot
Admin

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15003879.Iain_Macwhirter__Brexit_is_not_just_about_trade_but_the_future_of_European_civilisation

Posted 7 years ago #
ih
Member

Is anyone else coming to the realisation that May is seriously out of her depth?

Posted 7 years ago #
I were right about that saddle
Member

@ih

I guess these people are fairly unknowable, but the few times I've seen her on-screen she seemed to be having some kind of minor manic episode. Superficially lucid but on reflection nothing but a word cloud.

Posted 7 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Well it's obvious that some people on her 'side' don't have confidence in her certainties -

"

A major Tory donor has threatened to stop funding the party if Theresa May plans to remove the UK from the "critical" single market after Brexit. Sir Andrew Cook, who has given more than £1.2m to the party, told BBC Radio 4 that ending single market access was "chronic and dangerous" to the economy.

"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38540813

"

Theresa May hints that Britain may leave the single market as part of Brexit saying the UK cannot hold on to "bits of membership".

"

http://news.sky.com/story/pm-theresa-may-no-muddled-thinking-on-brexit-10722028

"

Brexit is like four-dimensional chess - within Cabinet, with backbenchers, with businesses and also with the rest of the EU.

"

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-still-refuses-to-define-brexit-10722293

Posted 7 years ago #

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