Depends if the UK Gov is as arrogant as, as thick as, or it wants the fail.
I would add the third option, but that sums it up.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)
(3979 posts)-
Posted 7 years ago #
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Posted 7 years ago #
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Not what I call terrifying
It's not the text that is terrifying, it's the situation that must exist for the text to be published that is terrifying.
People like Barnier would rather stick pins in their eyes than use language which isn't suave, consensual and diplomatic. This text means that he believes that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is governed by children or fools. It means that he is warning everyone to change course rapidly or brace for impact.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"This text means that he believes that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is governed by children or fools."
I suppose that ought to be terrifying, but we've just got used to it.
"It means that he is warning everyone to change course rapidly or brace for impact."
Oh ye of little faith, it'll be fine, Boris (and a few others) says so.
Posted 7 years ago # -
British media believes that the 27 will do whatever we want as we are avid consumers and can 'out shop' any nation in the world.
This belief is helped by JC (sorry @gembo) coming in as a likely contender for next pm. So if and when the Tories fail the next UK Gov can pick up where May failed with a different flavour of Brexit. They believe by stating the 'flexible' negotiate trade at same time as everything else mantra that the 27 will cave in and say - "it's Britain - you always have to give them a good deal or even better deal than they had when they were members".Dream on.
UK Gov is composed of people with an enhanced sense of self entitlement and this 'vibe' is noted by the 27. Each of these countries had to meet all sorts of conditions to join the club. (Yes Greece lied).
The total lack of subtlety of sending May to Japan to talk trade, while Davis went to Brussels does not help at all. You can just hear the "let's show them we can go round them while we are still an EU member".Er no...
Japan has many European interests and they will not be giving Britain anything that could endanger their existing relationship with the Single Market. That clarifying phone call would have been made last week from Brussels!
No sane person would expect to negotiate a stronger deal from the feeble position the UK is now in. Self government here could do a lot better - maybe an alliance of Labour / SNP / Green and internationalist Tories. This was the hope when the Brexit result came in.
Instead most parties seem happy we are going to stay isolated and poorer together. (Not Liberals though!)
I'm embarrassed to be associated with these people - think I'm not alone. I know many in England, Wales and NI are also against the stupidity on display but feel much of the media is far too respectful to them.One bright spot was seeing the FM talking with the Welsh Labour FM - or should we just stay quiet and let amateur comedians run (down) our economy?
Posted 7 years ago # -
An Englishman, Scotsman, and Northern Irishman went into a pub.
The Englishman wanted to leave, so the others had to as well.
Boom boom.
Posted 7 years ago # -
http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8079
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8079/CBP-8079.pdf
The Government’s White Paper of March 2017 had suggested that there would be a significant increase in the decision-making power of the devolved administrations, and that former EU frameworks would be subject to decisions by democratically elected representatives.
Brexit now coming home to roost in the devolved parliaments. Previous assurances of 'mair poo'ers' have not materialised in the outline of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.
Holyrood's continued responsibility for the subjects closest to CCE's heart, transport and health, is in no way guaranteed.
Posted 7 years ago # -
From paper Bella Caledonia magazine with National at weekend.
Gordon Guthrie writes.
"It is unthinkable and wrong that the UK is an equal to other European countries, to mere Belgium, Bulgaria and Spain. It is an affront to ‘us’, a psychic castration for ‘us’ to be cast down so. ‘We’ are a world power and ‘we’ seek our peers.
For this conversation not to sound totally mad, it is necessary to elevate the European Union to ‘our’ level, to be a worthy protagonist. As frothy British nationalists talk up Britain, so they must talk up the ‘European superstate’.
Alexander ‘The Piffle’ Johnson MP mugs through WWII films in his press conference charades: behind him a flotilla of the lesser outraged, the EUSSR men, the very dregs of Twitter and even the once sane, chewing carpets all.
The poor old EU only has 25,00 civil servants, no police, no army, no muscle. It is a puffed up cartoon villain: the giant marshmallow man of Ghostbusters, willed into existence in the fevered minds of its enemies. As Ireland is called again to fall within the British ‘sphere of influence’, then Slovakia must be in Germany’s, must be, has to be, is, definitely is."http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/09/03/the-complex-case-of-modern-nationalism/
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
Ruth Davidson has voiced her fears that Brexit could deliver an economic blow the UK may not fully recover from.
In an astonishing intervention by a senior Conservative casting doubt on whether Brexit will be a success, Ms Davidson criticised UK government ministers for failing to prepare the public for the uncertainty of difficult, drawn out talks with the EU.
"
Posted 7 years ago # -
Ms Davidson has sufficient low cunning to realise when her personal brand might be besmirched and to send up a suitable smokescreen.
Posted 7 years ago # -
For anyone still in doubt about what the next Prime Minister intends for the UK of GB∋
Posted 7 years ago # -
The BoJo manifesto!
Posted 7 years ago # -
Boris Johnson's 10-point plan for a successful Brexit
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[Point 7] Brexit will be a success.
...
See - told you tautology was underrated.
Posted 7 years ago # -
My benevolent celestial Brexit Ten Point Plan for Success;
1) Brexit belongs to the emperor
2) Embalmed Brexit
3) Brexit training
4) Suckling Brexit
5) Mermaids (or Sirens)
6) Fabulous Brexit
7) Stray Brexit
8) Brexits that are included in this classification
9) Brexits that tremble as if they were mad
10)Innumerable Brexits
10)Brexits drawn with a very fine camel hair brush
10)Et cetera
10)Brexits that have just broken the flower vase
10)Brexits that, at a distance, resemble fliesPosted 7 years ago # -
@IWRATS
See also
THe Brexit Trousers
Quite possible that he could have brothers Morris and Horace
boJo, MoJo and HoJo
Posted 7 years ago # -
"We should use the opportunities afforded by historically low interest rates to give this country the infrastructure it deserves – and especially in London"
I wonder if he means that in a sort of bad child deserving way or more a world leading country so we deserve world leading integrated transport system from the 21st century rather than 1960s.
If the former then surely car addicts could be seen to deserve badly overused and therefore congested, polluted, worn roads.
If the latter then it could be a good thing.
Posted 7 years ago # -
He means primarily airports. He's still sore over the reception his Estuary Airport idea got.
Posted 7 years ago # -
After spending two week in NL apologising to our friends there I thought I should keep thread going. NL still didn't have a government deal after months of negotiations and bike paths worked fine!
Of course with Catalonia now thrown into the mix things have just got even messier. Almost infinite combinations of EU centralist vs self governence / pro and anti EU views.
So many reasons to agree / not agree - what would Jeremy Corbyn say?Posted 7 years ago # -
Posted 7 years ago #
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From @unhurt's Der Spiegel link:
'"Brexit," says a senior EU diplomat, "does not follow an economic, but rather a political logic."'
The UK negotiators just don't recognise or accept this undeniable truth, so in my view, we're either headed for a massive crash out, or things will drag on and on until everyone has forgotten what the whole thing is about.
Posted 7 years ago # -
or things will drag on and on until everyone has forgotten what the whole thing is about
The treaties of the EU cease to have effect on the territory of the UK of GB&NI at 23h00 on 29/03/2019. At that point the remaining EU countries have to operate an external customs border with the UK regardless of what the UK wants. So, not the drift thing, the other thing.
Posted 7 years ago # -
When I said 'things will drag on and on' that was shorthand for the following scenario: There isn't a cat's chance in hell that the UK will be ready to leave after the two year Art 50 period, so it is more or less accepted now that there will be a 'transition period' of two years. My understanding of this period is that it will be the 'extension' allowed under Art 50(3) provided that is agreed by all members, and we will still be in the EU during this extension. Now, given the capability of our negotiators, I still can't see this being long enough, so we still crash out, or we run into a general election and people begin to think (taking into account demographic changes and sheer fed-upness with this incompetent government) "What did we do 5 years ago? Why did we do it? Let's just stay in - please."
Posted 7 years ago # -
A long and worrying conversation after dinner last night on the likelihood of the slow undermining of the Scottish Parliament. My companion thinks we need to be talking to people about this with great urgency...
Posted 7 years ago # -
My companion thinks we need to be talking to people about this with great urgency...
We have been needing to talk to people about this (the mess that Brexit is and the detrimental impact it will have, and the impact of the political machinations on the Scottish Parliament) with great urgency since June last year.
However, most people don't seem particularly interested. For some folk it's a general lack of interest in politics/government. For others it's a lack of understanding of the gravity of the situation, helped by the media either not understanding it, choosing not to highlight it, or treating it like an extension of the usual Westminster larks. There's also a general view that "it'll all work out", which seems particularly optimistic given the capability and talent displayed by the UK negotiators and its government.
There are a lot of exasperated people out there who see this as a very bad thing, but a real lack of leadership for them at the UK level. So it remains something of a lower level grumble without a real focus.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"So it remains something of a lower level grumble without a real focus."
True (and all the above).
'Something must be done' doesn't work.
We really are in a 'too many unknown unknowns' situation.
Suspect most pro-Indy people are waiting for it to all fall apart, and imagine they can then pounce.
Westminster Gov wouldn't act like Spanish one, would it...
At least Theresa wants to meet Nicola, so more (lack of) clarity coming soon.
Posted 7 years ago # -
the likelihood of the slow undermining of the Scottish Parliament
It won't be slow at all. On the 30th of March 2019 the UK of GB&NI will be in an exposed and dangerous position. There will be unprecedented urgency about the need to strike trade deals from a very weak position. Deals will be struck in areas where regulation is currently not reserved such as health care, education, farming and fisheries. No country or trade zone will have any reason tolerate a deal that involves regional complications to these rules.
The enabling act currently going through Westminster allows HMG to make law by decree. It's a power they will have to use to unify law and regulation across the territory they control. So devolved government as we understand it and quite possibly the existence of the Scottish health and education systems are going to be incompatible with the UK of GB&NI's exit from the EU. They're setting the mood music for this already.
MacCormick vs The Lord Advocate in 1953 established that there were limits to what Westminster can do to us without breaching the 1707 Acts and Treaties, but the only real one seems to be the abolition of the Kirk. Pretty much anything else goes and probably will. I expect the Scottish Parliament to be left with a single power; setting the rate of tax on earned income.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Suspect most pro-Indy people are waiting for it to all fall apart, and imagine they can then pounce.
True. And many folk in the Labour Party are waiting for it to all fall apart, and imagine they can then pounce for their ideals. However, for all the chanting, the Labour Party is as split on Europe as the Conservatives, so I doubt we'd get a coherent position.
I blame first past the post for all this - in this winner takes all system the parties have to cover far too much of a hinterland for the voter to know what they're going to get from them... The last 18 months of simmering anger have firmly convinced me beyond any doubt that the UK's political system is not fit for purpose.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@Iwrats well, now I'm really depressed. But also angry. @PS simmering produces steam - maybe
weI* should be making like James Watt and doing something useful with all this energy.*trying to stop avoiding facing up to the necessity that waiting hopefully for other people to do things I'm not prepared to do myself is (a) ineffective and (b) bad for the soul
Posted 7 years ago # -
So this thing is now directed by a prime minister who is clearly falling apart or a new prime minister is appointed by the Queen and the negotiations start afresh with only five hundred and forty one days to go.
And the EU may be too busy dealing with Spain and Catalonia.
Posted 7 years ago # -
And the EU may be too busy
dealing withignoring Spain and Catalonia.FTFY
Posted 7 years ago #
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