CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
ECT Is wanting your country to be independent being a 'nationalist'?
Well, yes! I would agree with SRD though that it is not intrinsically bad.
SRD -English nationalism really was complicated by colonialism and empire,
Ah, that is the really clever bit. Scotland was a full and enthusiastic partner in the empire and the colonies but we have somehow managed to point at the English and run away saying they done it.
I think if you've had the McGlashan style of nationalism directed at you, it becomes something you're more aware of an pick up on more frequently. Which would explain being conscious of it from a first reading, versus having to look for it.
It's the same thing with everyday sexism, which I think is naturally more obvious to women (but which because of that very tag is thankfully becoming more visible to the other sexes). Or indeed anti-Semitism, or sly racism, etc etc.
For instance, in the very post: "Poor chap grew up in Scotland, accused of 'being english'" If someone is accused of something then it's something bad. Basic semantics, granted, but, "... grew up in Scotland with Scots thinking he was English," is a bit more neutral.
"Maybe I'm just lucky in that respect."
Sort of. I used to get it more, but that's when I went out to watch the football or the rugby, which I don't do anymore. My little brother once, years ago, when he was about ten, was being walked through a shopping centre in Aberdeen wearing an England football top. A grown man stormed up and called him 'scum' before walking off. Some people just have a screw loose.
@wc well, yes, I said 'accused' because from his writing about it, it affected him, and is one of the reason's he's actually quite sensitive to such things.
@min i've never denied the scottish role in empire [and agree that more understanding of this is hugely needed], but, like the welsh and irish, it was first incorporated into the hegemonic project. so the experience of empire and the colonial project was profoundly different.
I'll be back as soon as I've remembered what a hegemony is.... :P
but, like the welsh and irish, it was first incorporated into the hegemonic project. so the experience of empire and the colonial project was profoundly different.
Nope, I don't understand any of that! (I got the bit about you not denying the Scots role in empire - for the record I never thought you did)
hegemony - n. leadership, political domination
But it didn't help me.. *blush*
Hegemony - your partner is a privet.
*spits tea over laptop*
England was the dominant force within the union and dragged the others along with it? Mind you, Scotland partially ended up in the Union cos its own attempts at colonialism had rather dramatically failed, leaving it a bit short of cash.
(I prefer wfb's definition)
I admit to having been at a recording of ISIHAC on Monday.
Susan Calman, Tony Hawkes, Jack McCauley and Barry Cryer.
And the lovely Samantha of course.
Susan Calman is briiiiiiiiiiiiliant!
Jealous (though I prefer the News Quiz and the Now Show and Heresy and the Unbelieveable Truth, which probably makes me a heathen in R4 circles).
Hmmmmmmm… not that keen on her.
Everyone in the audience had a kazoo. You'll know why when you hear the two shows.
No, hegemony is more cultural - enforcing norms of language and etiquette and behaviour.
Sorry guys - this is the sort of thing I do at work, and I respect you all too much to dumb it down :)
Also worth noting that I have spent my entire life living in places where I don't belong by birth, blood, or accent. I grew up using the 'wrong' names for meals, and the 'wrong' names for grandparents etc...so my take on 'nationalism' is coloured by a desire to belong, along with a recognition that I never will.
You belong on CCE.
"Nationalism" can be dangerous. It can go beyond just wanting to make the best of your country to using this as excuse to define a common enemy for your people (e.g. immigrants, Mexicans, Jews, ...) to divert attention from the real problems.
Sort of. I used to get it more, but that's when I went out to watch the football or the rugby, which I don't do anymore.
I also used to feel it in pubs when football/rugby was on. Never directed at me - I wouldn't draw attention to myself and don't have a particularly "English" accent - but noticeable and unpleasant. I've not noticed it recently because I do not watch international football or rugby matches in pubs any more - primarily for that reason (although I have stopped watching football matches all together; I'd recommend that: the sense of freedom it generates is fantastic).
And in all of this discussion, I find the blanket "scots are like this, English are like that" is a nonsense. Many Scots act differently from the group stereotype and many Engs act differently from their group stereotype. Exposes the national character stuff for the unhelpful and limiting notion it is.
Oh, and unhelpfully a couple of polls today seem to indicate the In/Out gap in Scotland closing.
Stayed in England for a while. Never made any attempt to fit in. It was London of course which might have made a difference.
Never particularly made an effort to fit in here either.
Coming back to the original topic, I'm hearing more stories of US investors ready to press the button on new developments in Scotland but that is conditional on the UK still being in the EU after next week. Also stories of financial companies who are now considering how many jobs they will have to move to Frankfurt.
Similar stories to those that were going around pre Indyref, but they don't seem to be getting much traction. The companies may be being more reticent, but I suspect it's more a media thing - the Brexit side seem to have a mastered the shouting "nonsense" response, and they're getting away with it.
I haven't heard any stories about the extra jobs and investment that a Brexit vote will lead to, rather just talk of removing the shackles of excessive regulation (which I interpret as being making it easier to lay off staff).
"rather just talk of removing the shackles of excessive regulation (which I interpret as being making it easier to lay off staff)."
Well yes.
As Gove said on telly last night "Think about the potential for this country", which was basically his soundbite pitch for 'vote leave'.
He talked about enjoying English when he was at University (Oxford) so is no doubt familiar with this -
I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land
Ignoring the fact that 'modern usage' may not reflect the original intent (and replace England with UK/Britian/ + Scotland) it might sum up the Brexit case - except that Brexiteers seem to imagine that all will be fine/perfect after next Thursday (or perhaps after the tedious two year or so interlude where everything is renegotiated).
Even people wanting less red tape, the ability to trade freely with the whole world, perfect immigration control etc. don't seem willing/able to explain which EU regulations and UK laws that have been enacted because of the EU, will disappear - and when, and what they will be replaced with.
Britain might have a better future outside the EU. (The EU might be better off without such a semi-reluctant member). More world trade, better British laws for British workers and consumers. It's just hard to believe that many of those leading the Out charge are the most likely to want to introduce such a brave new world.
Perhaps the saddest thing is that many of those who seem to be backing Leave, variously characterised as white working class or people living in areas of high immigration (some being first or second generation immigrants themselves), with more genuine concerns than whose living in leafy suburbs and shires (and most of Scotland) are unlikely to see the last 20 years or so rolled-back or, in practice, have a noticeably better future merely by voting next week.
Indeed - I wonder how much of the BREXIT vote depends on the sense of need for change based on several years of austerity.
"I wonder how much of the BREXIT vote depends on the sense of need for change based on several years of austerity."
Plenty I'd say.
Another of the Outers -
"
Bob’s enemy’s enemy became his friend when, always a socialist, he developed a friendship with Iain Duncan Smith, then Tory leader, who on a visit to Easterhouse seemingly underwent something of a conversion to the cause of social justice, after voting against every progressive measure of the Labour governments. The friendship did not survive Duncan Smith’s role in the Coalition and Conservative cabinets.
"
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jun/15/bob-holman-obituary
I have seen an argument that some EU regulations prevent activity taking place. For example, environmental regulations which are entirely appropriate for a large processing plant being applied to a small "proof of concept" test, which makes the test uneconomic and therefore doesn't go ahead.
Before the referendum debate began in earnest I was agnostic about the EU.
The recent tone of the anti-immigration crowd that seem to be dominating has made me decide to vote Remain. Farage and others may say they aren't racist, but they've done nothing to correct those arguing for Leave who definitely *are* racist. If they had confidence in their cause then they would be happy to speak up against the worst of the propaganda.
"For example, environmental regulations which are entirely appropriate for a large processing plant being applied to a small "proof of concept" test, which makes the test uneconomic and therefore doesn't go ahead."
Similarly complaints about 'big business regulations' having to be applied to small businesses.
Good reasons for exemptions/relaxations (which may or not exist).
Of course it's a well known FACT that only Britain obeys such rules to the letter, the rest of Europe ignores them...
Well, dealing with some French insurance companies was an eye-opener to their relaxed attitude to complying with regulations...
Of course it's a well known FACT that only Britain obeys such rules to the letter, the rest of Europe ignores them...
Doesn't that rather make a nonsense of the claim that only the EU is preventing the UK from turning into some sort of evil dictatorship with no rights for workers etc when only the UK seems to actually care about the rules? Or does the rest of the EU obey the "nice" rules? (genuine question)
The recent tone of the anti-immigration crowd that seem to be dominating has made me decide to vote Remain.
I find the hysterical screeching of "RACIST" by the remain campaign towards any brexiters who merely suggest that it might be a good idea to control immigration rather than go full Angela Merkal pretty disgusting too. And pretty insulting to the electorate, a great many of whom think some control might be a nice idea.
Does it really have to be all or nothing? If so, why?
Seems those involved in the campaigns want it to be a black and white issue. Almost literally. If it wasn't for the fact most eastern Europeans are white. But not white like Kiwis and Aussies and Yanks, who we like.
Interestingly, while trying to find info on something else, I found myself reading an article on EU law on driving offences, and the fact a new law was passed years back which the UK (and Ireland and Denmark I think) opted out of. This law basically allowed anyone committing a driving offence in another member state to be prosecuted for that offence in their own member state, by allowing exchange of info and so on. I also remember that fairly recently the Daily Wail was complaining about all of these Poles driving badly on our roads (stealing bad driving from honest, hardworking dangerous British drivers), then going home to Poland and nothing could be done to make them pay. Which was only the case because the UK had opted out of an EU scheme.*
(the AA had issues with the scheme because 'laws across the member states are inconsistent, with differing penalties and levels of proof'. Presumably the AA thinks that UK citizens should only be subject to UK laws for any misdemeanour abroad, not just driving ones? After all the rules in France for, say, not helping someone in distress, are very different to the UK, so surely UK citizens shouldn't be subject to the French law when in France?).
Where was I? Oh yes, one thing I don't like is similar to Min's point above. Brexiteers are rather sneeringly denigrated by many Remain folk. I voted Remain, but I know a few people who are voting Leave, and none of them are swivel-eyed loons who hate all foreign stuff.
Shades of grey in it all, and what will be will be.
*EDIT: that EU law has been restructured, and is now directly applicable, and therefore the UK (and Ireland and Denmark) have a couple of years to implement.
Min:
Yes, I agree that shouting "racist" at everyone isn't helping. But given Farage's latest poster then there is a certain demographic that they are appealing to, whether you like it or not.
"But given Farage's latest poster then there is a certain demographic that they are appealing to, whether you like it or not."
And that means that all Brexiteers should be tarnished as such? Like all cyclists run red lights?
No, I didn't say that at all.
Like you, I know plenty of people voting Leave for all manner of reasons. Hell, I could be persuaded to vote Leave based on my experience of dealing with absurd EU regulations in my career.
My issue is that in the event of a Leave vote then Farage is likely to take it as a signal to push his anti-immigrant agenda further, with some racists who voted Leave encouraged.
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