CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)

(3979 posts)
  • Started 9 years ago by I were right about that saddle
  • Latest reply from LaidBack

  1. ih
    Member

    "

    Also no-one was given ‘the true facts’ / ‘enough info to make a decision on’.

    "

    True, but I'm not sure it would have been ever possible to collate those 'true facts'. And, even if possible, opinion in today's world is so compartmentalised (I include myself) that the ability of facts to affect choice is limited. Last year's disaster has been a profound reason never, ever, to have a referendum again. Democratic choice can be made through the ballot box, and if something is genuinely wanted, it will happen that way.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  2. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    a profound reason never, ever, to have a referendum again

    The UK of GB&NI is obliged by international treaty to allow that a referendum may be held on a proposal that part of its territory be ceded to another state under certain circumstances, so there can be no blanket ban.

    How do you think the Scottish Question might best be addressed through electoral politics, given the first past the post multi-party electoral system to the sovereign parliament? I can't see any coherent way of doing that.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  3. ih
    Member

    Good point and question @IWRATS.

    I presume from a quick look at your link that the agreement refers to NI only. Solving the NI problem is way above my grade, but I would say that I wouldn't have started here, but 1921. Does the agreement specify the form of the referendum, and how the result of the referendum would be taken forward to union with the RoI?

    I would be sceptical of a change based on a simple majority (as per European referendum) although in most respects I think the decision for people in NI would be a lot simpler than the European one. On my previous thesis I would perhaps say that if a NI Assembly were to be elected (rather difficult at the moment I know) by a significant majority, 2/3 maybe, by parties fighting the election on a clear manifesto of union with Ireland, that should be a satisfactory basis to move towards unification. The sadness is that before the EU referendum the constitutional position in NI allowed a kind of interpretation where NI was both in the UK and in the RoI.

    As for the Scottish Question, similar problems arise; not enough information to make a decision, and as you point out, the problems of our first past the post electoral process for Westminster. There has to be something like John Smith's 'settled will', and we're not there yet. You could argue that the 2015 GE showed a settled will when 56 out of 59 (Scottish seats) SNP MP's were elected, but it didn't, people voted for many different reasons (just like the EU referendum, and the Scottish referendum) and that support is quite volatile. I don't know the answer, but it isn't a referendum.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    “True, but I'm not sure it would have been ever possible to collate those 'true facts'. And, even if possible, opinion in today's world is so compartmentalised (I include myself) that the ability of facts to affect choice is limited.“

    Yes, but I’m assuming (imagining!) that many people will realise that whichever version of Brexit they thought they were voting for isn’t the one in THE deal (s EU/WTO etc.)

    In which case they might (angrily or with sad resignation) prefer to remain(?)

    Posted 6 years ago #
  5. ih
    Member

    I live in hope, but I think polling evidence in the USA and UK, tends to point to people 'digging in' when presented with facts, especially facts which can genuinely be debated. I'm hoping that demographic movement will bring about a clearly discernible change of opinion, that will look at the final deals and say 'No', and then Westminster parliamentarians will vote on the final deal to stay in. That depends on how long the negotiating period lasts before we actually leave. I'm not sure March 2019 will be long enough.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    Next week the prime minister hopes to take a step forward in her government’s negotiations to leave the EU. Whether we voted leave or remain, all of us have an interest in ensuring progress is made. The talks come on the back of a scarcely believable transatlantic diplomatic row, with President Trump’s completely unacceptable retweets of the fascist, hate-fuelled Britain First and his subsequent public rebuke of Theresa May on Twitter.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/02/limit-brexit-harm-stay-single-market-theresa-may-confront-arch-brexiteers

    Posted 6 years ago #
  7. weezee
    Member

    Here's a sober read of the next few days from RTÉ

    Irisuh border: How the coming days will stretch the politics of Brexit to the limit

    Posted 6 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    In short (from link) -

    "It is not enough [for the British government] to say they want to avoid a hard border. The problem has been the whole time that they have been saying three things: they do not want to be in the customs union and the single market, they do not want a hard border, and they do not want a border on the Irish Sea.

    "The problem is that those things cannot be readily reconciled.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    Brexit legislation is an “attack on the principles of devolution” and must be rewritten, a coalition of 80 civil society groups has warned ahead of a key Commons debate tomorrow.

    UK ministers are coming under increasing pressure to U-turn on plans for post-Brexit devolved powers and amend a controversial clause in the EU (Withdrawal) Bill that has been branded a power grab.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/alliance-puts-heat-on-government-over-brexit-bill-debate-1-4629501

    Posted 6 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    Not sure he’s the optimum person for this -

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/03/tony-blair-confirms-he-is-working-to-reverse-brexit

    Posted 6 years ago #
  11. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I would argue that to an extent it was Mr Blair who sowed the seeds of the UK of GB&NI leaving the EU when he excluded England from the devolution of powers to Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.

    The result is reflected in the Guardian's website structure, which goes;

    home ›
    UK ›

    education
    media
    society
    law
    scotland
    wales
    northern ireland

    There is no 'england' section despite the bulk of their readers living there.

    Brexit is like an acid etch for Britishness. Strips the paint off and exposes all the dodgy welds in the mismatched bits of metal.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  12. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    It is entirely possible that the temperature of Jacob Reese-Mogg's blood has just risen from room temperature to 100°C.

    Foreign......Irish....female.....young.....in cahoots with the EU.....and telling Britain what it can and can't do.

    There may be a few Porterhouse Blues this week.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  13. ih
    Member

    Looks like "continued regulatory alignment" in NI with the EU.

    By my count that means that the UK has caved in on all three of the key negotiation issues.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  14. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Let's see if the DUP are in favour of 'continued regulatory alignment' or not once the mechanism for guaranteeing that continuation becomes clear.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  15. ih
    Member

    People are asking what May has said and promised the DUP to get them to the position of accepting this. I can't wait to hear!

    Posted 6 years ago #
  16. neddie
    Member

    I would argue that to an extent it was Mr Blair who sowed the seeds of the UK of GB&NI leaving the EU when he excluded England from the devolution of powers to Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.

    Therefore, isn't the "solution" to Brexit to give England, the North-east and London devolved powers and to give all devolved powers the choice of whether they want to continue with Brexit or not.

    Or am I being too simple?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  17. steveo
    Member

    Were chuncks of England not given a referendum on devolved powers which they rejected. Clearly happily catered for by London.

    Only way I can see to make it work is a federal solution and London only for non devolved issues with far fewer MP's.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  18. unhurt
    Member

    @shockproofbeats is amusing me this lunchtime.

    Also this from a Michael Reilly caused an actual snort of tea: "a nation (regulatory customs union and single market) once again"

    Posted 6 years ago #
  19. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Were chunks of England not given a referendum on devolved powers which they rejected.

    Yup. The English recognise the British divide and conquer tactic as well as anyone.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  20. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Therefore, isn't the "solution" to Brexit

    Oh God I've no idea. England could leave the UK or England-outwith-London could become some sort of Jurassic Park enclosure patrolled by velocinigels.

    The aim of psychotherapy is to allow people who otherwise can't to be unhappy. The people of the islands on which we live might want to aim for ordinariness? That's my political life goal. To live in an ordinary country.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    Trimble on R4 just now -

    ‘It’ll put NI business at a disadvantage’.

    Which is clearly debatable (not least because it’ll be a while before the trade deal Is done).

    Posted 6 years ago #
  22. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Does Mr Trimble think a return to 'the Troubles' wouldn't disadvantage these businesses?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  23. unhurt
    Member

    (The aim of psychotherapy is to allow people who otherwise can't to be unhappy.

    Typo I know but - I like quite like the idea of therapy for annoyingly happy people to help them find novel and exciting ways to be unhappy.)

    That's my political life goal. To live in an ordinary country.

    I'd accept "a sane country" at this point.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  24. ih
    Member

    His lordship Trimble sounded really shocked and blind-sided. Clearly the fact that he is now a Tory peer and an ex unionist PM at Stormont allowed him no privileged access to what was going to be announced.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  25. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    No, I meant unhappy. The ability to be unhappy without being crushed, taking off into delusion, murderous rage and so on.

    I've always thought the UK has never been able to just organise the bin collections and keep the tap water running. They're always off punching people on the world stage and being annointed by God and crazy stuff.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  26. Morningsider
    Member

    Seems like someone's thrown a DUP in the works - no deal today.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

  28. LaidBack
    Member

    The DUP not comfortable for not being able to suffer / enjoy benefits of Brexit in the same way as rUK it seems?
    Does show that Tories will allow a devolved country to have a be-spoke deal. (Joke)
    If NI was in single market and customs union Scotland will have to have same to avoid being disadvantaged by near neighbour.
    Was exactly a year ago ScotGov asked for same.
    Seems they think they can get Belfast on board by end of week. Sure money will be part of it. They also have to remember about the other admins on the islands of course.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  29. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    It will practically count as a work of modern art if Northern Ireland is forced into the EEA against the wishes of its first minister and Scotland is forced out against the wishes of its one and all as a result of English votes.

    University courses on electoral politics will use it as an example for years to come. If there are still universities.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin


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