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Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)

(3979 posts)
  • Started 9 years ago by I were right about that saddle
  • Latest reply from LaidBack

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    “

    And this raises, for people in Britain, a rather more explosive question. It is no longer whether Northern Ireland will leave the EU on the same terms as the rest of the UK. It is whether the rest of the UK will now leave the EU on the same terms as Northern Ireland. Given what seems to have been conceded, there is only one way for Northern Ireland not to have a special status – and that is for all the UK to remain in the customs union.

    The hard Brexiters like to see themselves also as hard unionists. But these two positions have just become radically incompatible. There are just two possible outcomes. If Northern Ireland in effect stays in the customs union and Britain leaves, then there will have to be an internal UK customs border, checking goods moving between Northern Ireland and British ports. This undoubtedly weakens the union.

    But the only way to avoid this is for the UK as a whole to stay in the customs union – which of course the true believers don’t want either.

    “

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/04/hard-brexiters-britain-weaker-ireland-brexit-talks-irish-border-lesson

    Posted 6 years ago #

  2. Stickman
    Member

    David Davis admits to teacher that the dog didn't eat his homework but that he didn't do his homework in the first place.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  3. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I don't see why the impact of the Will of the People on the people requires to be assessed. The people, by giving their Will, have implicitly consented to the resulting impact. Haven't they?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  4. rider73
    Member

    i dont see why we percieve everything the UK government as doing as somehow wrong or bad negotiating - could it be the EU leaders are the ones who are determined to scupper and destabalise everything leading up to BREXIT in the hope we end up giving up and just deciding to stay because they made it to financially and economically painful to leave the "club"?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  5. steveo
    Member

    Based on balance of probability its not malus on either part, incompetence on the side of our govnt who are totally out of their depth and an EU who have no interest in making it easy for them.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    “and an EU who have no interest in making it easy for them”

    The way things seems to be, the EU could be making things a lot harder.

    At least they seem to be a lot more consistent in following the rules and processes than those at Westminster who seem to be saying ‘look it’s us, your pals, just see us right and it’ll all be fine, we haven’t really studied the rule book ‘cos obviously it’s not really meant to apply to us, ‘cos we’re special’.

    ‘Oh and don’t worry about Ireland, it’s like a colony - well two colonies - so we know how to deal with such things.’

    Posted 6 years ago #

  7. LaidBack
    Member

    I was at wedding in Northumbria on Saturday. Alongside me were a couple from Newcastle who were running their own business. All went well till Brexit came up.

    His view was that we were lucky in Scotland as we didn't have so many of 'those Muslims' and their big families. Would move up here to Highlands if economy wasn't so rubbish etc...

    I said I enjoyed going to the Mosque Kitchen and the family size argument was just what right wingers said about Irish Catholics.
    Got quiet after then...

    Posted 6 years ago #

  8. Nelly
    Member

    @rider73 "Could it be the EU leaders are the ones who are determined to scupper and destabalise everything leading up to BREXIT"

    I would have thought that all of this is a tremendous additional burden for these people - I doubt very much if your thought is close to the truth, rather that they are - rightly - protecting their hard won positions.

    If the positions were reversed, could you see the UK helping, say, France flounce out the door?

    @Laidback - I read your post with a degree of resignation. Sadly the right wing press have won the PR war as far as many people are concerned. Its really sad.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  9. chdot
    Admin

    "

    "It might be thought the increased pessimism is primarily the result of Remain voters becoming increasingly disenchanted with the Brexit process," said NatCen senior research fellow Curtice.

    "However, this is not what has happened. Rather, pessimism has become much more widespread amongst those who voted Leave."

    However, public opinion on what kind of Brexit Britain should be seeking has changed little in the last 12 months, with the proportion who think the country should "definitely" or "probably" allow freedom of movement for EU citizens in return for securing free trade dropping from 54% in February to 53%.

    Curtice said the findings show a growing disappointment with the process of leaving the EU, though this will not necessarily persuade voters to change their minds about whether leaving the EU is a good idea.

    "So far, at least, voters seem inclined to blame the actors in the Brexit process for their perceived failure to be delivering what voters want rather than draw the conclusion that the act of leaving is misguided," Curtice said.

    "

    https://www.itv.com/news/2017-12-06/brexit-pessimistic-leave-voters/

    Posted 6 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/938487620002353158

    Posted 6 years ago #

  11. unhurt
    Member

    A friend today on the current shambles:

    "These people couldn't organise an 80s disco with a bag of Now That's What I Call Music LPs"

    Posted 6 years ago #

  12. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    <gloves> Nigel Farage </gloves> has written an article in the Telegraph to say that the prime minister must be deposed by the Conservative party to avoid Mr Corbyn taking over and Brexit being damaged. I'm not linking to it.

    It's a new low level every day.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    “

    New language for a draft Brexit deal on the Irish border has been proposed in talks between the UK, Ireland and the EU Commission, the BBC understands.

    BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg says she's been told it has been shared with the DUP, whose opposition on Monday led to talks breaking down.

    Another source told her the "dynamic is positive" but a government source says "we're not there yet".

    The UK hopes to make progress on the issue ahead of a December summit.

    “

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42273941

    Posted 6 years ago #

  14. unhurt
    Member

    Interesting times: Poll suggest that "Northern Irish public opinion favours a united Ireland in EU (47.9%) to remaining in the UK outside EU (45.4%)."

    (Obviously polls are but polls. But, yeah.)

    Posted 6 years ago #

  15. unhurt
    Member

    and Brexit being damaged

    by which I assume we mean "will be slightly less disastrous"?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  16. LaidBack
    Member

    Some sort of deal for now. Until people start asking questions?

    "The United Kingdoms intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship.
    Should this not be possible the UK will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland."

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-breakthrough-may-pledges-no-hard-border-as-commission-says-sufficient-progress-made-1.3320030

    Extract from Irish Times.
    Islands agreement?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  17. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @LaidBack

    Hard to quite understand what has happened but looks like the can just got a big kick down the road.

    Gives the British time to find a way to square the Northern Irish with remaining in the single market and customs union I suspect. Everyone meets back here in nine months looking at the same intractable problem unless the DUP are all assassinated in drone strikes in the intervening period.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  18. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Here's the text;

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/joint_report.pdf

    In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the allisland economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement

    The British have basically agreed to let NI stay in the EU for practical purposes unless they turn up next October with a phoenix riding a unicorn.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    “Gives the British time to find a way to square the Northern Irish with remaining in the single market and customs union I suspect.“

    Perhaps, but easier said than done.

    The DUP may well ‘go quietly’ (quite possibly given recent Brexit poll in NI - and more money), but the SNP won’t.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  20. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @chdot

    The can has been kicked down the road but it has also been filled with worms.

    The more you read the text the more it looks like the UK of GB & NI will become some sort of EU protectorate, paying the fees, applying the rules but not participating in the parliament or council.

    There's no way on earth the headbangers in the Tory party will accept that.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin

    “There's no way on earth the headbangers in the Tory party will accept that.”

    Depends whether or not they want an election.

    And whether Labour wants to (more or less) agree with ‘final’ deal and not oppose whatever endorsement vote results.

    Rather a LOT of unknowns....!!!

    Posted 6 years ago #

  22. paddyirish
    Member

    I can't see how this is progress and can't see how anyone can be happy with the following

    So far we have alienated the EU citizens who most people agree that we want to keep and provided a route in to anyone desperate enough to want to come here - Newry being the new Calais...

    Britain will be forced to comply with EU regulations and have no say in drawing them up.

    Also, why will I now be granted EU Citizenship (born in Northern Ireland), but my wife and children won't?

    A resounding victory for the EU negotiating team and "a significant political achievement" for T May my big fat hairy posterior.

    As IWRATS said many moons ago, "I see no good coming from this"

    Posted 6 years ago #

  23. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    And the master-class in spin continues;

    "Nicola Sturgeon welcomes Brexit deal progress"

    I would have thought a more accurate headline would be;

    "Nicola Sturgeon aghast, anxious and furious about Brexit but sees a glimmer of light in the rapidly darkening night"

    Posted 6 years ago #

  24. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Brexit deal: everyone born in N Ireland will retain EU citizenship after May agrees no hard border

    That's the Guardian headline, but nobody will surely stand for this? Why should I lose my EU citizenship when Arlene Foster, conduit for dark money to the Leave campaign, retains hers by simple virtue of emerging from her mother in Enniskillen?

    And how will that citizenship be tracked? Will NI-born people have different passports? Blood and soil nationalism, eh?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Scotland’s first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has released a more detailed statement responding to this morning’s deal on the first stage of Brexit negotiations.

    “

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/dec/08/brexit-border-eu-theresa-may-juncker-tusk-markets-live?page=with:block-5a2a987c32ead406c9714031#block-5a2a987c32ead406c9714031

    Posted 6 years ago #

  26. unhurt
    Member

    "Why should I lose my EU citizenship when Arlene Foster, conduit for dark money to the Leave campaign, retains hers by simple virtue of emerging from her mother in Enniskillen?"

    I have been wondering this myself - only with more swearing.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  27. chdot
    Admin

    “Why should I lose my EU citizenship when Arlene Foster“

    She doesn’t want it, so perhaps everyone who wants to retain theirs should ask her to transfer it.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  28. LaidBack
    Member

    Nicola S: "...And I am absolutely clear that any special arrangements for Northern Ireland must now be available to other nations of the UK – the Scottish government will not accept any arrangements which risk putting Scotland at an economic disadvantage."

    Arlene F will surely agree with that as the DUP cannot accept her part of Britain being singled out for special treatment (although the wording about something 'specific for the island of Ireland' if nothing else works is one they won't like?)

    Posted 6 years ago #

  29. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    The insistence by the British that Britain and the North must leave the customs union and the single market presents a real and live danger which cannot be understated. This also contradicts the British Prime Ministers claim that there will not be a hard economic border.

    Gerry Adams there. I think it's widely accepted that he knows something about real and live dangers.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  30. crowriver
    Member

    Clearly the only way to get concessions from the British is to bomb them into submission.

    Or prop up their minority government.

    Whichever's easiest.

    ---

    50. In the absence of agreed solutions, as set out in the previous paragraph, the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland. In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland's businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.

    ---

    Posted 6 years ago #

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