A humorous cycling-related link which was created before the horror of yesterday.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)
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Posted 8 years ago #
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"Rosie
I felt very sick during the indyref because it's always a rotten idea to stir nationalism. You don't know what is going to come oozing out. I feel even more sick now. Maybe this was an isolated guy with a mental illness, but this kind of polarising tribalism doesn't do us any good."
I think that the blood and soil nationalism which has been very much in evidence during the EU referendum is far removed from the civic nationalism displayed during indyref (despite the best efforts of now Lord Darling to try to equate it with the Yes movement).
This was encapsulated for me last week on Question Time when a woman in the audience stated (to some applause) "It's about our English culture... we are being invaded... we are being diluted..."
In Scotland we managed to have a referendum where the only thing thrown were insults and an egg.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Jester, There was also a reasonable amount of vandalism and property damage. But as far as I'm aware there was no physical harm to people so far removed from this tragedy.
Posted 8 years ago # -
acsimpson
Jester, There was also a reasonable amount of vandalism and property damage. But as far as I'm aware there was no physical harm to people so far removed from this tragedy.
Yes, I remember Ian Murray got a sticker on his door. That was a low point, I'll agree.Posted 8 years ago # -
There was physical violence during the Indyref, which has seen a law court appearance.
I believe it was from an Englishwoman who attacked an pro independence campaigner in Glasgow.
IIRC, the attacker is now a Labour MP or councillor.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Times' saying Baroness Warsi has defected from leave to remain.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Response from Kate Hoey, "I didn't know she was part of Leave anyway."
Independent has this too. Warsi quoted that hate and xenophobia caused her to change her mind, and lies from Gove.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I see normal service has been resumed. The debates today sounded pretty much as before, possibly with slightly lower pitched voices.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I watched both Question Times on the television. You wouldn't know that Mr Gove grew up in the same city and at the same time as me. He was calm to the point of iciness and very British.
Mr Cameron made an extremely odd argument that the people should decide because it's important, and they should decide by following the instructions of experts, of which, it seemed, he wasn't one.
Neither gentleman mentioned social cohesion or what it means to lead a good life.
This whole thing does appear to be a proxy for a vote on English nationalism. I don't object to English nationalism at all - it could be a very positive thing - but I have enormous doubts about the people set to manipulate and profit from it.
This is the first vote where I'm actually scared by the possible outcome. I am not looking forward to Friday one little bit.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Was working with marginalised disaffected Scottish mum today she is voting brexit. Scary
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Scary"
You're surprised?
Posted 8 years ago # -
If Scotland votes Leave we are in deep trouble.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Saw Nicola sturgeon urging the faithful not to vote leave (to secure second indyref).
Posted 8 years ago # -
Nicola Sturgeon wants, to use an old phrase, "independence in Europe". However, she doesn't want another indyref because she still wouldn't win it - may even lose it worse than last time.
So she's put her game theory into practice and come up with the following:
● All four nations within the UK vote to remain. Scotland is in the EU and she can continue to try and build a majority for independence.
● The UK as a whole votes narrowly to remain, but England votes to leave but kept in by the Scottish vote. Scotland is in the EU and she can point to the English vote and say that independence is needed to keep Scotland as a fully signed-up member, and if it pans out this way, then English voters will want Scottish independence.
● The UK as a whole votes to leave but Scotland votes strongly to stay. She gets nothing but at least can strengthen the argument that independence is essential.
● The UK as a whole votes to leave but Scotland votes weakly to remain or also votes to leave. The worst scenario for Nicola; she would have no mandate or momentum for independence.All scenarios require the Scottish vote to maximise remain. I think she has actually played this rather well, being unequivocally for remain but not associating herself with the tories.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Pro Brexit slogans painted on the cycle path in Clackmannan yesterday. Don't think it was the washable chalk stuff used for POP :-(
Posted 8 years ago # -
If London is the engine of the UK economy, the rest of the UK provides the fuel
I think the BBC is drunk.
Posted 8 years ago # -
This is worth 25 minutes of your time to help clarify the issues - evidenced based decision making, anyone?
and some extra points he didn't have time to make in the lecture recorded above:
Posted 8 years ago # -
"
George Kerevan (@GeorgeKerevan)
20/06/2016, 23:20
#CatsAgainstBrexit My cat Rufus calling for a Remain vote. @MiriamBrett @theSNPhttp://pic.twitter.com/wnUoxthqFz
"
Posted 8 years ago # -
Londoners contribute 70% more of the UK's national income than people in the rest of the country each year...
...by skimming the cream off of people's bank accounts from all round the world.
Hardly adding any "social value" is it?
Posted 8 years ago # -
Posted 8 years ago #
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"
by skimming the cream off of people's bank accounts from all round the world.
Hardly adding any "social value" is it?
"
Gove was on good form on R4 Today today complaining about Banks and also praising City workers.
Don't worry it'll all be fine from Friday (and Gove doesn't expect to be PM).
Posted 8 years ago # -
@edd1e_h
As ever, I think there is a lack of clarity about the source and destination of wealth. There are activities in the City of London that generate wealth, but equally there are activities that capture and re-direct wealth created elsewhere. High frequency trading is the epitome of this, but you could argue that buy-to-let landlords are in the same game.
If I understand correctly, a vote for Brexit on Thursday will in many ways be a rejection of London by the English working class.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"will in many ways be a rejection of London by the English working class"
Some probably.
Some "the City of London" (whatever that actually means!)
Also many rejecting 'the way things are now' AND hoping (against all sort of likely 'realities') that whatever they don't like won't get worse and, somehow, it will unroll back to 'the way things were'.
Of course such a 'dream' has been sold to them by politicians and newspapers who should (and probably do) know better.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Also many rejecting 'the way things are now' AND hoping (against all sort of likely 'realities') that whatever they don't like won't get worse and, somehow, it will unroll back to 'the way things were'."
I keep wondering how far back the leavers want to roll history to get "Great" Britain back again. It would have to be before the War, maybe even before WWI - the days of empire? But the problem with that is that, er, we don't have an empire any more. We will never ever be that "great" again. We don't have the fleet or the hegemony to do gunboat diplomacy, which is what secured our empire in the first place.
As the video I posted above makes clear, any renegotiation of trade deals will take years if not decades. In the meantime, I guess it would be good for self-reliance and deglobalisation...
Posted 8 years ago # -
Michael, I'm not an intellectual anything, Gove definitely positioning himself between Osborne and Johnson for next leader of Tory party and therefore Pm. His new friend Nick robinson is one heck of A tory
Posted 8 years ago # -
From the Twitter, but true for me;
Scotland.England.UK...........Emotion
------------------------------------------
Leave.....Leave....Leave......Sadness
Remain...Leave....Leave......Terror and excitement
Remain...Leave....Remain....Hilarity
Remain...Remain..Remain....IndifferencePosted 8 years ago # -
"
And right now, that means Boris and Nigel – not Dave. In other words, the EU debate has become a proxy for a deep-seated despair about England’s broken, competitive society. which is not necessarily or even mostly about migrants and refugees.
Researcher Liza Mackenzie says immigration isn’t the main issue in the English communities she’s been studying: “It’s housing, schools and low wages. The women worry for their children and elderly parents – what happens to them if the rent goes up again? The lack of affordable housing is terrifying. The talk in mining communities is also about the lack of secure and paid employment, the loss of pubs and grinding poverty. Immigration is not as prevalent or as high on the list of fears as sections of the media would have us believe.”
The EU referendum has opened up Pandora’s Box in England because voters who switched from Labour to support the Conservatives have only experienced a further deterioration in their life chances. That despair and suspicion is pouring all over the European debate. Why not vote for Brexit? At least it’ll wind up the bankers. These voters have nothing to lose.
"
Posted 8 years ago # -
Apparently -
Posted 8 years ago # -
Londoners contribute 70% more of the UK's national income than people in the rest of the country each year
And sink a lot of it into their own massive property bubble.
And benefit to the tunes of uncountable billions of public infrastructure investment. While people in the north of England are still nodding around on British Leyland-inspired Pacer trains, squillions have been invested in shiny new rolling stock and rail schemes for the capital.
Posted 8 years ago # -
From that Telegraph article;
William Hill twice shortened their odds for Davidson to succeed Cameron as the next Tory leader.....If Britain votes to Remain this week, the Conservative Party can be hers.
The state of journalism these days.
(1) She's an MSP. If she was leader, who would she appoint as prime minister?
(2) If she won her current Holyrood seat as an MP, how would EVEL affect her party's view of her as a suitable leader?
(3) Where would she be confident of winning as an MP in England?Posted 8 years ago #
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