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Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)

(3979 posts)
  • Started 9 years ago by I were right about that saddle
  • Latest reply from LaidBack

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  1. LaidBack
    Member

    @Nelly -good pdf

    paraphrasing as can't copy it.. "At the end of any transition period we face a second cliff edge - the equivalent of a delayed no deal"
    "International law has no feelings for the status of a country" (just as well!)

    Just went on National to see HoC in action with members talking among themselves to drown out a Scottish MP. John Bercow seemed relaxed.

    The media are complicit in under-reporting the FM's speech and paper. I don't generally listen to Radio 4 so no idea whether they covered.

    In the end we need a settlement that will work for everyone - economic trouble for England and Wales is bad news for us all. If media black out views from 'wee Nicola' (as her opponents call her) then we can deduce that the establishment are worried - probably because they hadn't clue what to do next.
    I think the era of UK politics melted away anyway and Scottish interference in the desire of England & Wales to go it alone is not wanted.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  2. Nelly
    Member

    Thanks Dave, I thought it was very simply put (if rather worrying !!).

    I note that Berkow is stepping down next year - he might implode before next June if everything about Brexit falls apart as predicted.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/brexit-will-crash-the-economy-snp-westminster-leader-warns-1-4816116

    Posted 6 years ago #

  4. chdot
    Admin

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-uk-must-bin-unjustified-food-standards-for-brexit-trade-deal-2018-10

    Posted 6 years ago #

  5. LaidBack
    Member

    Big march on in London today. Estimates are over 500,000.

    This twitter post caught my attention.

    Edwin Hayward
    @uk_domain_names

    Here's the truth about Brexit, the "punishment" some people claim the EU wants to inflict on us, the full horrific consequences of no deal, and the dangers lurking behind any deal we reach. Buckle in, it's pretty long. Better to be thorough than to leave anything out. 1/47

    Posted 6 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    All in one place version (5 pages)

    https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

    Posted 6 years ago #

  7. LaidBack
    Member

    Quite a crowd in London.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2018/oct/20/peoples-vote-march-london-second-referendum-brexit-live

    Was a counter demo of course... but haven't seen any pictures from that ;-)

    Edit: Counter demo was in Harrogate - a radical choice!

    Another demo took place in Belfast to reflect the majority remain vote in Northern Irleand.

    "John Barry, a Queen’s University professor associated with the Green party in Northern Ireland, attacked the Brexiters. “They are drunk on magical thinking around making England great again and continuing the border with science fiction technology and an exaggerated sense of their importance in the world and they show no signs of sobering up,” he said. "

    Posted 6 years ago #

  8. Tulyar
    Member

    Brush with a twitter follow - asks for proof that leavers remain leavers. Plenty of interviews & letters from those who voted leave, regretting their choice & wanting to vote remain next time.

    Seem to be very few saying they voted remain, but have been convinced that leavers are right

    Posted 6 years ago #

  9. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    The UK of GB&NI now depends on the generosity of people it has been scorning and antagonising for years to avoid implosion in 154 days time.

    There is a high delivery risk attached to government departments’ border programmes for ‘day one of no deal’ due to their scale, complexity and urgency; this risk is magnified by the degree of interdependence between the programmes.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    Also about last link -

    “

    Today's National Audit Office (NAO) report on no-deal preparation reads like a horror story. It shows that we are now past the point of no-return on no-deal preparations. No matter what we do now, it's too late. We can't get the border systems online in time. That puts us completely at the mercy of our negotiating partner.

    “

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/10/24/it-s-official-we-ve-run-out-of-time-to-prepare-for-no-deal

    Posted 6 years ago #

  11. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    First draft of the autopsy report on Brexit.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  12. wingpig
    Member

    When I get a moment I'm going to try and find a map showing civil war faction distribution to compare to geographical Brexit vote spread.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  13. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @wingpig

    The civil wars of the 17thC were numerous and complex, no? Perhaps we could start with the English reformation. Brexit always had a Henry VIII versus the Holy See vibe for me.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  14. wingpig
    Member

    @iwrats I know very little of local human-scale history - see other threads where I was wondering at the motivations of people who have fights whilst pretending to watch association football performances (particularly in how their monarchistical preferences had any bearing thereupon). We were in Stirling castle last week where it tangentially mentioned Ol-lee-vah CROM-WELL, which reminded me that the same is also tangentially mentioned in the information-speaking-guide for Tattershall castle, mere miles from my parents' village and in an area which was >70% in favour of Brexit.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  15. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @wingpig

    Sorry, I was just giving @unhurt the chance to call me a Presbyterian zealot manqué but of course Presbyterian zealots don't use words like 'manqué'.

    I'm trying to understand the eighteenth century a bit. Ol-lee-vah CROM-WELL bombarded Edinburgh from Braid Hill in the seventeenth and I have no idea why.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  16. wingpig
    Member

    In those days of slow travel and communication any reason anyone might have had for doing something might well have evaporated by the time they reached the place where they intended to do it. Maybe he thought he was bombarding Stirling from Abbey Craig as punishment for harbouring monarchs.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  17. unhurt
    Member

    I have failed in my duty.

    Btw if you have no work to do and would like to do some reading, this site seems to be a good source:

    British Civil Wars, Commonwealth and Protectorate

    Posted 6 years ago #

  18. chdot
    Admin

    They can’t believe this still, so it has to be believed they want a hard Brexit.

    “

    Dominic Raab warns 'intransigent' EU could result in no Brexit deal

    “

    https://news.sky.com/story/dominic-raab-warns-intransigent-eu-could-result-in-no-brexit-deal-11535155

    Posted 6 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    “

    SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford was joined at the meeting in the European Commission’s Berlaymont headquarters by Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable, Plaid Cymru MP Liz Saville Roberts, and the Green Party MEP Molly Scott Cato.

    They told Mr Barnier that opposition parties were working with pro-EU MPs in the Labour Party and Conservative rebels to defeat the Prime Minister’s Brexit deal and force a so-called People’s Vote to give the public a chance to stay in the EU.

    “

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/brexit-pro-eu-mps-tell-barnier-to-prepare-for-brexit-u-turn-1-4820097

    Posted 6 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Such has been the intense focus on the immediate crises to hand – the daily cliffhanger of Theresa May’s survival; the deadly pendulum of the 48 Tory MP letters that would trigger a leadership battle; the gridlock of EU summits; and the Irish backstop wrangle – few have felt able to look much further than tomorrow, still less the day after.

    ...

    All this between now and April 2019? Good things, of course, might happen. But I’m stuck to think of one.

    “

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/bill-jamieson-brexit-could-make-uk-federal-state-with-co-pm-sturgeon-1-4819533

    Posted 6 years ago #

  21. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    The view from Canada. Triple plus ungood.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    Whole article worth reading, but this is probably the key section -

    “

    Even now, after two years of Brexit talks, it is astonishing that a senior U.K. civil servant could imagine that he could make private arrangements with French officials about a border controlled by a supranational authority – the EU. It would be as if Mexico sought to do a private deal over migration with California without consulting Washington, but it tells you something about the British and why they remain oblivious to how the EU works and why Brexit is failing.

    In part, it is because England has always been utterly transactional in its dealings with foreigners and in its own legal and constitutional arrangements. It explains the astonishing blindness of the Brexiteers who never imagined that the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic could be a problem if the United Kingdom left the EU. That extraordinary arrogance lies at the core of the Brexit problem; Ms. May has promised to honour the Northern Ireland peace agreement, agreeing that there will be no border infrastructure, but she has been unable to think up a workable alternative to the EU’s suggestion that Northern Ireland remain, in all but name, part of the EU

    “

    It’s probably not surprising that a Canadian newspaper can distinguish between England and the UK, I’m sure many others don’t understand (inc London based papers).

    Posted 6 years ago #

  23. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/28/no-wonder-dysons-singapore-britain-currently-doomed-humiliation/

    It cannot be repeated too often that under the Chequers proposals for “ongoing harmonisation” and a “common rulebook” this country is offering Brussels (and the powerful European industrial interests behind the Commission) the chance to control huge chunks of UK industry, to stifle innovation, to run our trade and commercial policy, to collect UK taxes – and with no British voice round the table to raise even a peep of protest. It is quite incredible that the Cabinet remains acquiescent. We must chuck Chequers forthwith.

    The 'mad riddle' just gets madder. Former foreign secretary here arguing for the rejection of proposals that he helped draw up himself and which have already been rejected by the EU. Also the gentleman fails to specify how the Irish border would operate with Northern Ireland outside EU law as he proposes.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  24. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46056337

    If plod/the beaks declare the whole thing a vast criminal conspiracy just after the country disintegrates is there a suitable historical precedent? I can't think of one offhand.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  25. Stickman
    Member

    @IWRATS: there was an almighty stooshie when Wendy Alexander accepted £950 from someone in Jersey. That all seems very quaint now.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  26. acsimpson
    Member

    @IWRATS,

    the plod is too young for much historical precedence in the way of country formation.

    I suspect the precedence is a mob armed with pitch forks turning up at his door.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  27. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @acsimpson

    I passed by the NMS today as I do when I can. Ground floor, quick look. Fine range of items: a fifteen foot pike made in the Canongate, a range of claymores and an execution machine.

    Just a thought.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  28. acsimpson
    Member

    Yes that sounds like an appropriate form of historical artefact. What is the current mandated sentence for treason?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  29. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @acsimpson

    There exists a class of persons and affairs which are exempt from criminal justice in the UK.

    I expect this will turn out to be one of them.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  30. LaidBack
    Member

    One thing that all sides of EU debate agree on. Scotland must always be addressed with a 'bespoke' campaign. Whether it's marketing food or political ideas it's handy to seem local.

    The People's Vote (Scottish launch) happened yesterday - following a tradition of Scotland focused campaigns for leave and remain (ie Scots vote matter but not in a home 'national' sense) .
    https://infacts.org/scotland-demands-a-peoples-vote-on-brexit/

    The deal is that PV need more votes from here to nullify the votes of people in England and Wales.
    The English national leave vote was 53%. The input of the other three home nations moved the whole UK vote one point down to 52%.
    I think that the right wing in England though will never accept their country (England) being kept in the UK EU by many 'out of step' Scots and N Irish voting in an 'un-British' way.
    Imagine if UK voted to stay in the EU by the vote in Scotland tipping UK from 50% to 49%? - things still wouldn't settle down I reckon.

    The FM has to walk the tightrope of being supportive - the PV may never happen anyway. Jeremy Corbyn is keeping clear as he hopes to tailgate the Tories Europhobia into power?

    Posted 6 years ago #

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