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Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)

(3979 posts)
  • Started 9 years ago by I were right about that saddle
  • Latest reply from LaidBack

  1. wingpig
    Member

    A: "Cling onto any power by any means."

    One of my main worries at the moment is that the Tories' bewilderingly high polling will convince the EU that a majority of the UK populace is as daft as the government and deserves to crash out.
    What I hope happens is that the EU invite Cummings/Johnson and a few other lying scumbags to what they pretend will be a special conciliatory deal-acceptance meeting but which is really a fully-televised castigation-session where all the main EU players and rEU heads of state take it in turns to calmly debunk all the Brexiteers' lies until they give up blustering and sit looking harried and guilty until being encouraged to sign an extension or revocation right there and then.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  2. acsimpson
    Member

    @winpig, That could be a good resolution.

    @IWRATS, re the LibDems, I am starting to wonder if they are expecting a no-deal and trying to look as good as possible on the other side of it. Of course such lies would eventually come to light so it may not be a great plan.

    re SMP, If NS was seen to be too overtly pushing for independence then De'piffle would almost certainly use it as a distraction technique. Another guess would say that she is pro-EU and sees a real risk that as a country splitting from a non EU member state it would be far harder to join the EU in the future.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  3. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Everybody is frustrated.

    BJ is doing a good job of frustrating any negotiations with the EU.
    Parliament is doing a good job of frustrating BJ's no deal desires for now.
    Everyone who wants to leave is frustrated becasue it's been 3 years and we're still in.
    Everyone who wants to stay in is frustrated because it's been 3 years and they think all of the leavers have died.
    Wee Nic is frustrated becasue she wants no deal but can't say so, so she can split the Union.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  4. PS
    Member

    Re all political parties: they're playing to their base and target voters in order to be in the best possible position come the next election. Party before country, you could say.

    Re: LibDems: they're anti-Brexit but recognise that a core element of their target voters are vehemently anti-Corbyn, so are doing a lot of (IMO) frankly ridiculous posturing against the concept of Corbyn-led coalition to keep that element of the electorate onside. The fact that the ex-Conservative MPs in parliament won't back a Corbyn-led coalition adds some weight to their posturing, but it doesn't make it any less distasteful (why not just let him have a go at forming a government, fail, and then go for a compromise candidate?)

    Re: SNP: Any Brexit that took the UK out of the single market and customs union would add a substantial barrier to winning a future Indyref (assuming Scotland wants to join/remain in the EU, which I think we do). You would be talking about actual border posts and customs checks at Gretna, which will be too much for a lot of voters - I can't see it being a vote-winner in the Borders, for instance. Politics aside, it would also be a real problem for the economy (and citizens) of an independent Scotland.

    Re: Labour: Who knows? The Labour party is a coalition of a bunch of political factions who have different aims and views on what they want. Every so often, a pragmatic group seems to have the upperhand, leading to some (IMO) sensible approaches and tactics, but there's always a spasm as other elements force their (INO) divisive agenda to the fore.

    Re: Conservatives: They have become a cult. No sense of reality, absolutely nuts. I can understand the views of the EFTA crowd, but that boat seems to have sailed, and we're now left with full-on burn it all down revolutionaries, who are surely neither "conservative" nor, for viewers in Scotland and Norther Ireland, "unionist". The concern is, current polling suggests they are quite a popular cult.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

  6. LaidBack
    Member

    The main 'achievement' of Brexit is to demonstrate that life in Scotland can go on without an operating parliament in London.
    Three years of not very much being done there - yet we can debate policies here and our politicians can walk and speak in front of thousands of people without fear.
    BJ on the other hand answers to no-one and is unlikely to visit here again as of little value electorally.

    So... the long journey to a 'differentiated UK' is under way and short of abolishing Holyrood is unlikely to congeal back into a Greater Brengland, even though culturally we may enjoy the music and theatre from there.
    One theme that is happening already is an increasing number of English people coming here to escape the regressive politics in the south. (eg if you are a Green supporter in England you have Caroline Lucas MP vs the rest - how can that be democratic when climate issues are so important? Trident? Fracking?).

    So after three years of hostile non partnership with England we seem to be getting used to the idea of just getting on with it. On personal level over 50% of LB bikes are coming in from EU and that will remain despite best efforts of the Tories to destroy goodwill and erode our income.
    Our English bike contacts are relaxed and / perhaps jealous of the fact we have some options about how we run things 'up here'.
    They are aware of our politicians keeping to a clear pro EU policy.

    In the end they too stand to suffer from Brexit as Germany is a huge market for the 'Made in Britain' items they sell. After IndyRef 1 much Union Flag branding came in big time and would be popular abroad. Now it might not be so popular - particularly if a Leave poster portraying Angela Merkel as Hitler is printed in tomorrow's German red tops.

    UK /BJ offer to Scotland (and N Ireland) is hang about with a crowd of predictably dishonest spivs and speculators and be poor. Or go your own way and we will punish you just like we are going to do with the rest of EU.
    If that is the UK idea of partnership you won't be surprised to see even bigger marches and a yes vote for Indy 2. At least we can build on repairing the damage with our European neighbours and maybe help rUK to become progressive again.
    If we can't effect change inside we may as well be outside.
    ... the border...
    Well I expect trade and travel to continue but we do have ways of going round it. We may have to increase ferry routes and pack more supermarket goods here.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  7. Baldcyclist
    Member

  8. Baldcyclist
    Member

    So it looks like Boris has blinked and deal almost done. N Ireland to stay in customs union for ever.

    Looks like we're out on the 31st.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  9. LaidBack
    Member

    The 'almost done' bit might need a delay to leaving EU.

    Paris G from Scotsman reckons this Anglo Irish love in could be a regular date for Leo & BJ.
    This then allows BJ to say that the 'pathway' is under construction and like all great engineering projects it needs time blah blah (insert latin etc).
    Meanwhile the DuP wake up to the fact that keeping the Irish market together with no checks and remaining in EU customs union means that this part of the UK is less British than they would like.
    BJ can say to them that as there is no government at Stormont he had to speak to the only power centre over there in Dublin. As they believe in being governed by London then they should do what they're told, plus their votes won't be critical with more cross party support in Wm.
    Somehow I don't think they'll like the economic advantage of being the only part of the UK that is potentially in two states at once.
    Any differentiated settlement in NI also affects economy & status here in Scotland as 2nd closest neighbour with ferry links.
    But if alternative is GFA being damaged then can see the 'pathway' being one route.
    If BJ takes credit for this don't be surprised and election will be fought on being Leo's best pal.
    Leo isn't speaking to JC so much at moment.

    By tomorrow it could be all change again!

    Posted 5 years ago #
  10. Ed1
    Member

    Under the conservative government and permanent secretary, the UK became the first country in western Europe where the government could fire an employee due to a protected characteristic and to dispute had to pay a large fee about 1200 quid with no presumption of getting it back if win, unlike courts where there is a presumption of costs for the successful party.

    I messaged the permanent secretary when they were claiming to be some sort of diversity champion yet in practice over sore the transition from a free resolution service to one with high fee 1200 the fees which were in fact where higher if dispute was over a protected characteristic.

    In other countries where there is no free resolution service the government pays for one for the government employees even the states does this for the american civil service. Its not some crazy left wing thing its an anti corruption measure.

    For what ever reason the permanent secretary choose not to do this for the government employees and did not step down so chose to supported the decision.

    It was challenged Under Eu law there is a no longer a fee.

    I was pleasantly surprised when expected to have to pay a fee, as looked up the cost of tribunal and found the under Eu rules the fees were deemed illegal.

    having neurodiversity issues Aspergers disputes are not unknown as get a lot of prejudiced in public sector in part because government does not have to follow law lots of exemptions and friendly regulators when no exemption. It also because no one cares if do a good job or not as not about money so things are not done on a work basis as may be in private business in theory. In 2003 I had my job illegally cancelled in the Scottish executive after they send me to 3 places to start work and did 3 unofficial interviews when had already passed the formal interview and had contract. Yet for some people they chose to do 4 interview for and 5 days for an AA job when the regular person had 1 and got job after passing and contract. The Scottish government is the only gov department that does not use blind recruitment to this day ignoring public sector best practice.

    Anyway I with diversity issues as they call it these days, you have a lot of disputes as people do

    So was pleasantly surprised when expected to have to pay £1200 fee over disputing a job move I did not want to change job etc. and the EU law says they cant charge it.

    I would generally think brexit should go ahead because its whats people voted for.

    However on a practical level probably does not suit me so well if it does, as UK gov left to its own devices could be corrupt with the checks and balances removed.

    We could go back being the only country in western Europe where could be fired on protected characteristic and have to pay a crazy fee to challenge

    Posted 5 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    May’s customs plan was vehemently rejected by Brexiters as impractical. Jacob Rees-Mogg, the then chair of the hardline European Research Group of Tory MPs, described it as “completely cretinous, impractical, bureaucratic and a betrayal of common sense”.

    But Rees-Mogg, who is now leader of the House of Commons, made clear on Sunday he and other leavers were prepared to compromise.

    “Boris Johnson is … somebody who even the most arch-Eurosceptic, even a member of the Brexit party, can trust and have confidence in,” he said.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/13/eu-ready-to-grant-brexit-extension-as-johnson-prepares-for-key-summit

    Posted 5 years ago #
  12. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    The electronic billboard masquerading as a bus stop on the way down to the Picardy Meat Grindr tells me I have twenty days to prepare for Brexit.

    The banalisation of insanity.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

  14. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Might be time to batten down the hatches. EU seems as keen as UK now to get a deal done this week.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50050433

    I fear the resistance has lost.

    Still has parliament as a barrier, but some on Labour benches seeming to warming to the emerging deal.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  15. LaidBack
    Member

    There's an attraction to setting up a new European order - Irish economy is doing very well out of British companies buying up office space in Dublin.

    Leo and BJ help each other look statesman-like with an all Ireland customs regime (albeit not called that). NI should be a great place to do business in too.

    For those wanting to see Scotland fully incorporated into a Greater Britain it also has an attraction - although it also makes a good case for differentiated nations in the UK state. (45% in Sunday Times survey think Scotland would be better off in EU as independent country which is quite high considering most media is hostile to idea here).

    Irelandia - the buffer zone to Europe - conveniently positioned closer to USA

    Brenglandia - the buffer zone to USA - conveniently positioned closer to Europe (incorporating Scotland and Wales)

    Eurlandia - stronger than before

    Posted 5 years ago #
  16. SRD
    Moderator

    https://article54.eu

    Posted 5 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    “Everything is going in the right direction, but you will have noticed yourselves that with Brexit and above all with our British partners anything is possible.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/16/michel-barnier-optimistic-of-deal-after-pm-makes-concessions-on-irish-border

    Posted 5 years ago #
  18. SRD
    Moderator

    https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1184530270478913538?s=20

    "We believe the Government's proposed Withdrawal Agreement is contrary to section 55 of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 "

    ...

    "I intend to lodge an immediate petition for an injunction in the Court of Session preventing the Government from placing the Withdrawal Agreement before Parliament for approval. We expect that petition to be lodged tomorrow and to be heard on Friday."

    Posted 5 years ago #
  19. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    “It shall be unlawful for Her Majesty’s Government to enter into arrangements under which Northern Ireland forms part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain.”

    I had no idea they had so much in common with the DUP. At this juncture, these people are just useful idiots to the hard Brexiteers.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  20. crowriver
    Member

    "our British partners "

    That's the kind of diplomatic language Russian officials use. It's always "our Western partners" or some such just before issuing a thinly veiled condemnation of some other government's actions...

    Posted 5 years ago #
  21. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Here's the new constitutional arrangement for the UK of GB&NI, brewed up by Vote Leave and the EU overnight;

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_19_6120

    Rule Britannia.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  22. Baldcyclist
    Member

    "The Political Declaration provides for an ambitious FTA with zero tariffs and quotas between the EU and the UK."

    How did Boris manage to get that concession, surely if that trade agreement actually happens the EU project is on shakey ground?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  23. Baldcyclist
    Member

    *duplicate post

    Posted 5 years ago #
  24. toomanybikes
    Member

    Costs are colossal though. Lots of new red tape

    https://twitter.com/ChrisGiles_/status/1182595006382645249?s=20

    Posted 5 years ago #
  25. toomanybikes
    Member

    Also that's the political statement. More negotiations on tarriffs to come. Will be interesting how that works out. Non eu countries currently have no tarriffs e.g. Turkey.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  26. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @toomanybikes

    Turkey is a member of the EU customs union and operates the single tariff schedule.

    https://rapidnotes.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/europe-venn-diagram.png?w=1272

    The UK of GB&NI will be a small, weak third-party country and will pay high tariffs.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  27. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    CCE provides for flying unicorns and jet packs for all. CCE does not supply or guarantee the supply of those things.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  28. gembo
    Member

    Looks like Junckers helping Boris by refusing extension. Probably to try to put an end to it Buonarroti as Pope said to michaelangelo when he was painting the ceiling.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  29. Baldcyclist
    Member

    "Looks like Junckers helping Boris by refusing extension"

    Oh dear, it might just be over.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  30. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Any extension is granted by the European Council acting in unanimity;

    3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

    M. Junker is President of the European Commission. I know all the funny foreign stuff is slippery and treacherous but rules is still rules.

    Posted 5 years ago #

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