CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Do we need an EU referendum thread? (Brexit thread)
(3978 posts)-
Posted 4 years ago #
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Do people on here who voted against Scottish independence consider their 2014 vote to have been an unalterable and inviolable expression of their lifetime's will?
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1217039173347168257/photo/1
Posted 4 years ago # -
People have a right to change their minds as circumstances change - or not.
I can’t remember the context of the ‘once in a generation’ soundbite or whether it was said by AS, NS or both.
But I think it was
A) a plea for people to vote Yes now (then) rather than in some distant future.
B) not something (the idea ‘we won’t ask again for a long time’) that the SNP was/is in any position to promise/insist/guarantee on behalf of Scottish voters.
I also don’t think that the PM’s belief that the result was “decisive” is really true. If he believes it, perhaps he should call a referendum himself.
Giving the Scottish Parliament the ability to call a referendum is no guarantee that MSPs would vote for one or that another vote would give a different result which may or may not be what the PM fears.
None of it is good politics.
There is a tiny chance that the current UK Gov will benefit enough people in Scotland for the idea of a referendum to go away.
If Scotland is to become an independent country I just hope that the Government of Scotland has very different policies and aspirations than the current one at Holyrood.
So, new (or revived existing) party or a very different SNP.
I’m not seeing that as likely to happen.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@chdot If Scotland is to become an independent country I just hope that the Government of Scotland has very different policies and aspirations than the current one at Holyrood.
It will. Of that I am sure (or deluded!).
England has only managed to elect one Green MP. Many Indy supporters are green tinged and the fact that the scrapping of Air Passenger Duty is not policy here is a small indication of their influence.
Much of what is considered progressive England is centred on Europhile Londinium. Away from the smoke is a land of cars come first. True of course even in bike friendly Denmark when we ventured through Jutland.
What I really mean is that we have a better chance to deliver green policies.
Labour's slow conversion to accepting Indy is underway. It will be hard for them but we need to be normal country in charge of our environment, rather than a sporting estate with fracking opportunities.
Accept a large minority will always disagree while accepting that the larger half of the Union will punish us for 'disobedience' (aka expressing a distinct viewpoint at odds with the latest twists and turns of the Tory party).Posted 4 years ago # -
“It will. Of that I am sure“
Good.
Rolling back on the APD was a bit of a surprise, but the current SNP party/Gov is still stuck believing in road building, status quo land ownership and management etc.
Or it may be that they just fear the electorate. Either way it’s not a good sign for any sort of ‘sustainable’ future.
It also allows Transport Scotland to get away with not investing the necessary money in ‘active travel’ on the basis that (apparently) ‘it would be too hard to spend more than £80m per year’.
Posted 4 years ago # -
In fairness, £80m buys a LOT of paint and red chippings for "Quality" bike infrastructure...
Whereas trunk roads are really expensive. because sitting in a really smoothly surfaced traffic jam helps minimise wear and tear to your motor vehicle.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Channel 4 with very biased coverage on BJ's laughable response to request for Indyref2.
Gove was allowed to tell everyone that this isn't what anyone here wants or needs as he speaks for Scotland you know (being one of 'us'?)
Indy has nothing to do with people's place of birth having more rights than 'incomers' - that's Brexit!
Ch4 gave no response to SNP or ScotGreens.
Irish politicians used to be treated with such ignorance.Posted 4 years ago # -
Spotted an old boy at the bus stop wearing one of these.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Posted 4 years ago #
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31rd?
Sigh.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@crowriver, I like to think the manufacturers took a deliberate decision not to point the error out.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Big ben’s gonnaa BONG
Posted 4 years ago # -
“
It’s true that Brexit may not dominate the headlines in quite the way it has done over the last few years. But even if the surface remains calm, beneath it there will be a whole lot of furious paddling. For Brexit will be the dominant driver of the underlying business of this government. Its handling of Brexit is more likely than anything else to define its legacy. A change as profound as our exit from the EU, for good or ill, entails huge and lasting consequences for this country; we are really only now, finally, at the starting gate for sorting out what that will mean.
“
Posted 4 years ago # -
‘Brexit complicates the functioning of our own internal market, as the devolved governments take up powers in areas like agriculture, fisheries and the environment.’
This guy been drinking? Northern Ireland might get extra powers to persuade them to go, but Wales and Scotland are about to have their wings well clipped.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Whitehall will have to re-engineer its relationship with the devolved governments to ensure the UK internal market is not compromised through the emergence of different standards on different sides of the UK’s internal borders. That will require agreement between the four governments of the UK to work together.
I liked the fact that one of the first things for BJ from the reborn Stormont was a unanimous vote not to accept his Brexit deal.
Wales may well follow but no other devolved administration is likely to match NI's utter rejection.Posted 4 years ago # -
A momentous day that has changed the way the nations of the UK relate to each other and the nations of the EU.
Agreement at least between everyone that this is going to have consequences. Some fortunes will be made, some businesses will founder. Life for many will go on as before, but with some big differences for those with European connections.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/jan/23/brexit-boris-johnson-labour-leadershiop-eu-official-tells-johnson-to-face-dose-of-realism-as-he-claims-brexit-now-crossing-finish-line--live-news?page=with:block-5e29b5b88f0879d539efdae4#block-5e29b5b88f0879d539efdae4Posted 4 years ago # -
Came through Calais on the way home a couple of days ago. New razor wire, new holding areas, new signs. New questions. New cameras.
Into a strange fashion of forsaking;
And I have leave to go of her goodness,
And she also, to use newfangleness.Posted 4 years ago # -
https://twitter.com/LesleyRiddoch/status/1222802808971452416?s=19
Anyone going? Mrs LB and I will be there as media would like to pretend that Scotland will be quiet about this.
Remember the remain election vote here also included 4 LibDems and 1 Labour.
So around 53 of 59 MPs pro EU or at least anti chaotic leave?Posted 4 years ago # -
Rule 2 everything.
Also: in wider analysis of the context in which we're voluntarily leaving a relatively safe harbour and heading out into stormy right-wing waters in a leaky boat set to pull its seams wider and wider apart as time goes on -
"The only thing particularly unique about America’s illiberal turn is just how long so many desperately clung to the myth of its exceptionalism. They clung to it, one assumes, bc they could not face up to the depth of the darkness before them. There is no looking away now though.
At this juncture what keeps me up at night is not whether Trump will win in 2020; he will, almost certainly, by hook or crook. It’s that we have no model for what happens to global politics when the keystone state of the international system definitively self-immolates.
It won’t be just “more” of what we saw since 2016. It will be exponentially worse bc there are fewer and fewer guardrails or structures left - at either the domestic U.S. level or internationally. At that rate, the world of 2024 will be tectonically different from, say, 2014.
I don’t mean this to sound defeatist or morbid. But I wish all of us, on both sides of the Atlantic, would spend much more time thinking and writing about the long-term structural dynamics at play here, and not the day-to-day horse race politics. The hour is late, indeed.
The end of American constitutional democracy, much more so than the end of American international primacy, will have devastating effects on global stability. This is not a ripple, it’s widening gyre and it will pull polities near and far into its collapsing orbit."
Posted 4 years ago # -
@LaidBack
Aye, see you there. Never been stripped of citizenship before, I guess it's a bit like dying in that it's maybe best not to do it on your own if you can avoid it.
Posted 4 years ago # -
I'm taking a hip flask and bad attitude.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Rule 2 everything.
Yup
I'm taking a hip flask and bad attitude.I'm accepting defeat and quietly turtling in to my self and letting the country burn. <Rule 2>
Posted 4 years ago # -
I've worked with some very angry liquids in my time. (I think this was my favourite - ignites spontaneously on contact with air.)
I can't think of a liquid sufficiently pyrophoric to put in my hip flask tonight.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Early to bed tonight. At all costs no internet.
Posted 4 years ago # -
“At all costs no internet.”
I know what you mean, but nothing much changes for another 11 months.
Posted 4 years ago # -
This -
“I don’t mean this to sound defeatist or morbid. But I wish all of us, on both sides of the Atlantic, would spend much more time thinking and writing about the long-term structural dynamics at play here, and not the day-to-day horse race politics. The hour is late, indeed.”
Posted 4 years ago # -
Maybe see some of you at 23h00 or before at Holyrood for the Great Loss.
Posted 4 years ago # -
I've never been stripped of citizenship before. If there's anyone on here who voted Leave I hope you get not only what you wanted but what you deserve.
Posted 4 years ago #
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