CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Priority over Side Roads

(25 posts)
  • Started 8 years ago by UtrechtCyclist
  • Latest reply from sallyhinch

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  1. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    One of the big problems with the current Leith Walk plans is that the cycle lanes don't have priority over side roads. The reason isn't that the planners don't want to give priority, it's that they think it's not possible to do safely. Which is clearly not true, there are loads of examples from the UK and abroad. I'm looking to write a short blog post with 5-10 examples, preferably from the UK, of segregated bike lanes that have priority over side roads, just to prove that it's possible.

    I have two examples from this excellent article which aren't particularly well done, but prove the point that with UK traffic laws its possible to have continuous cycleway across a side junction. Does anyone know of any others?

    I'm reluctant to use Dutch examples as there are different laws about turning traffic there, UK would be ideal.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. fimm
    Member

    "there are different laws about turning traffic there..."
    Oh, really?
    What are the differences? Does this mean that simply cloning Dutch examples to the UK won't work?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. sallyhinch
    Member

    A traffic engineer's view http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/blog/2013/07/26/a-view-from-the-drawing-board-cycle-track-priority-across-side-roads

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. duncans
    Member

    Didn't seem to be a problem in Germany (Freiburg example):


    UK examples? Are there any?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. paddyirish
    Member

    Just about any side road on A8 shows how not to do it. Neither party can see the other until the last possible moment.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. Iratesheep
    Member

    Doesn't the new set up for the separated infrastructure along Buccleuch street give cyclists priority by Buccleuch terrace?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. ih
    Member

    You're right @irate; just been to check. The cycle track is unequivocally continuous across Buccleuch Terrace. The opposition would probably argue that this is just a minor cul-de-sac with hardly any traffic (a bit like cars crossing a pavement to get to a private parking area) but it sets a precedent so it can be done. Good spot @irate.

    AND, Sally's link above, repeated in this post, explains beautifully from a traffic engineer's point of view how priority across side roads can be implemented in this country perfectly legally, without worrying that priorities are different on the continent. It just needs the balls to decide to do it. http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/blog/2013/07/26/a-view-from-the-drawing-board-cycle-track-priority-across-side-roads

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Thanks for the link Sally, that's really useful. And Duncan that Freiburg crossing looks superb! Very happy that we already have an example in Edinburgh too, I'll go and take a photo tomorrow morning.

    Fimm, in Holland and Germany you're allowed to give pedestrians a green man to cross the road at the same time as giving a green light to cars that want to turn across the pedestrian crossing. The cars give way because turning traffic gives way to traffic (pedestrians) who are going straight on. This means that at almost every junction in Holland turning traffic has to give way to bikes/peds.

    I think that in the UK this is a little more troublesome, if a pedestrian crossing has a green light you're not allowed to direct any other traffic across it, even if the other traffic has to give way.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. douglaswaring
    Member

    There's a pretty good example in Glasgow on Elderslie St - a 2-way segregated cycle lane next to a one-way street. See this link http://www.cyclestreets.net/location/62885/

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. fimm
    Member

    Oh, of course. I kind of knew that.

    It is unfortunate in a way that we don't have that here, as it would mean that drivers would be used to giving way when turning left.

    On the other hand, the British way means that if you have a green man you can definitely cross without worrying (too much! you should always check...) about whether traffic is going to give way to you as it should.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. Darkerside
    Member

    Oddly, that come up at the (softly, softly) launch of Glasgow Space4Cycling earlier in the week. In ensuring drivers never have to "unexpectedly" give way, we encourage lower awareness and a general sense of priority.

    There's probably comparisons with removing street signs/road markings to make people think harder whilst driving...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. slowcoach
    Member

    Pedestrians should have the benefit of this from Highway Code Rule 170 "watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way". Not clear that this applies at signals too.

    Examples of different types of engineering treatment (for pedestrians, not cyclists) at different ends of South Castle Street, St Andrews: entry quite good and
    exit quite bad.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. ih
    Member

    @slowcoach Problem with this rule is that (a) no driver seems to be aware of it, (b) it only applies if the pedestdian is already on the crossing, and (c) it doesn't apply at light-controlled junctions.

    In situations under discussion here, what's required is crystal-clear visual information to drivers that they HAVE TO give priority to the cyclist on the cycle track. So that means absolute continuity of the cycle track in terms of height, colour, surface texture etc. The kerb should NOT continue round the corner (which gives drivers the visual idea that they have priority) and cross the cycle track. There should be road markings for the driver making it clear they should give priority (Sally's link above shows how this can be done)

    @slowcoach I took a look at your St Andrews example. Not sure what it's demonstrating.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. Darkerside
    Member

    But the rules for green traffic lights are "go when the way is clear, taking particular care regarding pedestrians who may still be crossing". (Liberal paraphrasing from memory...)

    Nowhere is "lean on horn whilst accelerating at the victim" mentioned.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. slowcoach
    Member

    ih: it might not be clear from the streetview but at the entry into the street, on the right in 1st view, the kerb continues over the side street so drivers/riders have to go over the kerb to get into the side street. the kerb across the footway is flush so doesn't disrupt the continuity much. Not a great example but it was the nearest I could remember to figure 7 from your link to the Cycling Embassy blog. The exit (on right in 2nd view) definitely suffers from the failings listed under fig 7: "(UK attempts at similar layouts often continue edge, centre or waiting restriction lines across the footway, undermining the effect)". I hope that's clearer now, and that others will have better examples to show us!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. ih
    Member

    @darkerside Sure, no mention of 'leaning on horn' anywhere, but the key issue here is priority at non-light-controlled side roads, where there is a segregated cycle track running alongside the main road. Currently bikes would have no priority across side roads, but it doesn't have to be like that.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. i
    Member

    I'll throw this link in too

    Since one of the design team were worried about wear and tear on a seamless pavement on side road, I started up this thread. Basically you can use sturdy setts.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. i
    Member

    @Duncan and @UtrectCyclist, the Freiburg example looks similar to the other flawed examples, similar to the 3rd picture.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Thanks all for the suggestions, I blogged here (nothing too profound, just reiterating that priority of cycle paths over side roads can be done (and has been done) in the UK).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    MOST relevant to this thread!

    https://twitter.com/shuggiet/status/613140663090212864

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    There's a wonderful photo of side road priority at Oval from Maidstoneonbike, https://twitter.com/maidstoneonbike/status/631873366165725184/photo/1 .

    This is exactly what we should demand for the minor side roads on Leith Walk.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. Kim
    Member

    When I first queried the Council Officers about why they couldn't have cycle lanes with have priority over side roads, they said it wasn't possible in Edinburgh...

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9484241,-3.2038364,3a,75y,278.63h,75.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sX7IlnXYNdPsnSLSkE5kRYQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

    But a quick look at the design guidelines shows that there are guidelines for giving cycle lanes and off road cycle paths priority over side roads (including putting them on raised pillows to make sure that vehicle are forced to slow down when turning) if the volume of cycle traffic is sufficient to justify doing so. Here we get to catch 22, the volume of cycle traffic will never reach the justified level, without the infrastructure.

    The real problem with Leith Walk is that the car is still considered king, even though the residents of Leith has some of the lowest level of car ownership in Scotland.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. Kim
    Member

    If only there was somewhere we could point to where an off road cycle path was given priority over side road on a raised ramp, maybe something like this

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.9413316,-3.1832281,3a,75y,146.91h,87.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXJqgqAPdrYKh8FzH7Z0ZGQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

    somewhere in Edinburgh...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. HankChief
    Member

    I ran into the same problem on the A8 cycle path and the entrance to half a dozen houses taking precedence over the main cycle path on from the West - with poor sight lines 'solved' by putting give way signs on the cycle path so far back you can't see cars approaching - and no change or even a warning sign to the side road.

    Previous thread

    In that case the count of differing vehicle movements must be in favour of the cyclists, but still because the cycle path dips down to the side road it has priority and I was told only a change in the law would allow them to change it (which I think is a bit of an overstatement).

    The optimist in me is a tiny bit hopeful that when we get to the see the plans for the £300k of junction improvement to the A8 cycle path this financial year, CEC will be doing something here.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  25. sallyhinch
    Member

    Meanwhile in London

    Continuous pavement and cycle track at Oval

    Posted 8 years ago #

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