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Modal shift - potential/reality

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "I'd say this is an exceptional case as it's really narrow and far far far too busy."

    Agreed.

    And of course one reason that it's busy is that the parallel roads are not particularly 'cycle friendly'.

    Another reason is that it goes where a lot of people want to go.

    (The fact that it is flat is a bonus.)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  2. The Boy
    Member

    Interestingly, i was going to suggest the 1930s as the start of car-centric planning. I'm thinking of places in and around Blackhall, Ravelston and so on.

    Big, wide roads. Low density. little or no local amenities beyond the obvious schools and libraries.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. acsimpson
    Member

    I've had issues with a few dog owners, more because they can't control their dogs or call them across a path an inopportune moments than because they and I are conflicting. Dictionaries seem to suggest that dog walkers aren't necessarily pedestrians as the definitions seem to suggest a travel element rather than just being out on foot. The Oxford goes as far as to say "A person walking rather than travelling in a vehicle" (Does that mean cyclists aren't pedestrians if not on their bike.) In US english however they define it as "A person walking along a road or in a developed area." Which I think is probably far more accurate.

    That is all largely irrelevant however as whatever the purpose these are still human beings and the space should be designed to accommodate them.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  4. newtoit
    Member

    I get what you're saying about the Inch Stephan.

    Lived there for 2 years up until late last year when we bought our first house so have moved slightly further out. We lived up at the top, near Mt Vernon so our local shop was Margiotta - cycle parking there consisting of 3 wheelbenders. I did see a reasonable number of people on bikes actually, quite a lot coming up Mt Vernon road. There is not the mass cycling there that you may like/expect. Bear in mind though that the Inch was historically quite a deprived area (though seems to be on the up) and cycling has been seen rightly or wrongly as a bit of a middle class thing.

    Travel to the shops (Scotmid, Post Office etc) I can understand why people drive. There's plenty of parking outside and the distance is quite far to walk from where we were if you want to just grab something. Usually we'd only go down there for a takeaway - it stays warmer for longer in the car and the journey time is less! If it was easier to cycle down, and cross, Gilmerton Road then that would be helpful.

    Parking in the Inch is a bit of a joke though. Far too many cars, but was obviously built with the vision of every other house having a car. Now, many multiple car households, so the roads are crammed with parked cars that are a pain to pass.

    At our new place up the road, a lot of people seem to cycle - it's really nice. We're within walking distance of Aldi and Morrisons as our "local" shops, and it's easy to jump on the bike and be there in just a minute. Quiet roads help, of course. It is still car-centric having been built in the 80s but our house has a parking space and a garage so no issues with cars abandoned in the way (apart from work vans blocking the road)!

    Unsurprising then that being on a quiet street in quite an affluent area, comparatively, with good links to local amenities, the number of people choosing to travel short distances by bike has increased.

    And, now that I have panniers, I may consider doing the big(ish) shop by bike too!

    Posted 8 years ago #
  5. Min
    Member

    I can't recall that I (or other people) have ever been shouted at by pedestrians (but lots of drivers) just for being on a bike.

    I have been shouted at for using my bell and also for not using my bell.

    I have been shouted at by a man who walked out in front of me and then, when I stopped to avoid riding in to him screamed "what is your ****ing problem" into my face.

    I got shouted at by a woman who did not hear me say thank you to her man who moved across for me even though he did and tried to defend me.

    I have had evil stares from some people on a bike path I can't remember the name of at the moment when almost everyone else has returned my smile and greeting.

    I got an evil stare from a pedestrian I politely waited behind before overtaking on a bike path.

    I have been out riding with more deviantly mounted cyclists who have been shouted at for riding the wrong sort of bike.

    Anti-cyclist sentiment (edit-from peds) definitely exists in real life but I agree that there is no generalised hatred for cyclists towards peds. We ARE peds so we have an understanding of the situation that the bike haters do not.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    @Stephan

    "Without wanting to dismiss anybody and as somebody who's not really involved much in anything, my impression so far was that Spokes, PoP an various individuals who are not obviously attached to an organisation have had more of an impact on improving the pedestrian environment than LSE, although I don't know how much is going on behind closed doors."

    Spokes has been campaigning for better facilities for "cyclists" in and around Edinburgh for 38 1/2 years! It has always been 'in favour' of walking and PT - but has always had plenty to do just getting Edinburgh to do cycle stuff! (Without any staff.)

    Somehow this forum has attracted many of the people who are doing 'active travel' related things and are, in general, interested in a bigger picture. (That is NOT a criticism of Spokes or anyone involved - having a 'cycle focus' has been vital.)

    Many people here are making PoP possible (they are still looking for all sorts of help).

    I think PoP is both a sign of the times and has also succeeded in moving things forward - particularly the understanding/acceptance of segregated routes. (Or at least speeded some of that up.)

    The other 'thing' that has emerged is http://walkcyclevote.scot - which may or may not have a big impact at (and after) the coming election.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  7. wingpig
    Member

    I regularly go through Albion Place/Crawford Bridge/Bothwell Street and Lower Gilmore Place and it's nice how pedestrians spread out to fill the street because it's a dead-end. At the top of Bothwell Street there's often very little room to use the footways behind the angled-in cars and it's probably only the residents of the tenements who use the pavement.

    Going past my house or if I go the non-Leith-Walk way to work then the cyclists I see tend to be the same ones at the same times. I'd guess that less than half the cars disappear from the roadside during the normal working day. The largest pedestrian usage of the street in the morning is by schoolchildren, but there's another way out that all the cars and human adults could be using. I see very few pedestrians on the footways in the morning until I get to the Duke Street area or the Marionville/Lochend roundabout. A former colleague would drive less than a mile from near Leith Links to around the back of Meadowbank to catch a bus.
    I see a thin but steady stream of cyclists using the Leith Links path most mornings, even through what passes for winter so far.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  8. Min
    Member

    Travel to the shops (Scotmid, Post Office etc) I can understand why people drive.

    It would be really handy for me to be able to cycle to the Post Office in the Inch but I can't because there is absolutely nowhere to lock my bike.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  9. newtoit
    Member

    @Min - Likewise Liberton post office. Think I've locked up against the railings at the bank before?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  10. @Min: Sorry to hear you get shouted at a lot. Experiences are more varied than I realised. I guess as a tall male person I'm less likely to get shouted at...

    "It would be really handy for me to be able to cycle to the Post Office in the Inch but I can't because there is absolutely nowhere to lock my bike."

    Is this Walter Scott Avenue or Lasswade Rd? At WSA I think there are only racks at the old phone box at the Scotmid end. Initially they installed 2 racks at the Scotmid and 2 near the post office (planned right in front of the post office but apparently the guy came out and told the council workers to install them in front of somebody else's shop as he feared they might attract unwanted elements). They were then damaged by reversing drivers, and moved to the phone box when the pavement was resurfaced. I didn't realise there aren't any at the Post office end. I am very proud of these racks because it's my tiny little claim to campaigning fame to ask for racks to be installed a few years ago.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  11. Min
    Member

    I guess as a tall male person I'm less likely to get shouted at...

    That is very possible. Laidback is pretty tall but I guess on the recumbent it is hard to tell.

    Is this Walter Scott Avenue or Lasswade Rd?

    Walter Scott Avenue. I had a look on street view and I don't see any bike racks at all by the phone box although there is a notice board thing at the end that might do. A couple of bike racks where the planters are at each end of the run of shops (perhaps between the planters to protect them) would be perfect.

    he feared they might attract unwanted elements

    What, like cyclists?? Very strange.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  12. @Min: Oh, indeed they are not on Streetview. I think they were re-installed in autumn, I remember I went there in spring and the old ones had gone. Council informed me it was because of resurfacing & putting in planters.

    The old non-post-office ones are on Streetview back in 2014:
    https://goo.gl/maps/j1zAUy5rF1T2 and at Scotmid only one (the other one having been mangled by a drivist) https://goo.gl/maps/Uq3qnnPuZWQ2

    I actually prefer the new location on the island as they (and my bike) are less likely to be hit by drivers who are trying to drive their wives as closely to the shop as possible. But there should really be some on both ends.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  13. Min
    Member

    Odd. Maybe I have only been going when they are "between bike racks" as it were. Anyway, I am glad to hear that there are a couple there even if they are not obvious!

    Posted 8 years ago #
  14. @Min I found Open Streetmap very useful for locating bicycle parking, it's more up-to-date than Google because people can add data when they notice something missing.

    It shows the racks next to the phone box: http://osm.org/go/evfgQuLPW

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. crowriver
    Member

    "cycling has been seen rightly or wrongly as a bit of a middle class thing."

    It depends.

    Many working class people might see someone on a bike in their area and assume they are:

    - too poor to afford a car
    - unable to drive due to laziness, incompetence or being banned
    - cycling for sport/recreation
    - up to no good

    It's unlike;y they'll assume the cyclist is middle class.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. Stickman
    Member

    At major congestion spots like there should be signs saying "in the time you've been waiting in this queue you could have walked X miles or cycled Y miles"

    Posted 8 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    In ref to above

    "

    Thank you for this link.

    Regarding the cycle parking at the Inch, the cycle team installed 4 cycle racks in 2014 but these were removed last year during the work to resurface the footway outside the shops. It seems that the contractor has not yet reinstated them. I have been in touch with the local area team and we are now looking to have them reinstated as soon as possible.

    With regards to the Post Office in Liberton, this seems like an excellent place to install new cycle racks and I shall add it to our database of locations for new Sheffield racks and propose to have them installed in the new financial year.

    As previously advised on this forum, we welcome any suggestions for new cycle parking locations and would ask that any suggestions be forwarded to cycling@edinburgh.gov.uk.

    Regards

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  18. neddie
    Member

    My teenage niece was complaining about the high costs of motor insurance on the Book of Faces. I tried to convince her that in the amount of time it took her to earn the money to pay for the car and all of its requirements, she could walk the same distance.

    Needless to say, she didn't get it...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    "Needless to say, she didn't get it..."

    Yeah but

    "Cars" have got nothing to do with 'transport'.

    (Or logic.)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  20. @chdot: They were (partly) reinstalled and are now next to the phone box opposite the Scotmid. In my opinion a much better place than the narrow pavement right in front of the shop, so please leave them there... (In fact I suggested this location on Twitter at the time but I don't know if this was the reason for moving).

    The only issue is to also have some racks on the other end, at the betting shop, and perhaps in the middle. Again i would suggest to have them on the island, not on the footpath, so that they are out of the way and not get damaged again.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  21. Rob
    Member

    Nice to know the council are open to suggestions for bike parking. I wonder if they're open to suggestions which are currently used as car parking. Something like the "Solo M/Cs" spaces on George Street but with proper racks.

    It wouldn't hurt to reduce the amount of car parking anyway, that's what really creates congestion.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  22. Ed1
    Member

    31. My teenage niece was complaining about the high costs of motor insurance on the Book of Faces. I tried to convince her that in the amount of time it took her to earn the money to pay for the car and all of its requirements, she could walk the same distance.
    Needless to say, she didn't get it...”

    The effective speed concept (time of hours worked to pay for car), the problem with this concept is unless someone can chose the number of hours work a week then the hours walked would be on top of hours worked. It may be that someone would rather have the hours the same and pay a cost. So it may still make rational sense if little flexibility in hours worked if on say a fixed 44 hours a week to spend money on a car to save hours walked/cycled. If someone reduced hours to 38 may have the same amount of time and hours but the employer may not offer this.

    The concept for most people could be turned as a minus of hours you have spare a week (as little flexibility on hours worked), this would be increased marginal utility of the remaining hours with each loss. The shape of utility function may mean that people will pay several times and hours worked for each hour worked. Imagine in theory a CEO or something working 70 hours a week, what would an hour be worth to them, many times an hours pay quite possibly. The effective speed concept does not take in to account, rigid hours or the or changing marginal utility.

    Even in the hypothetical if someone can changes hours worked It’s quite possible the utility does not meet on hour for hour basis. Even if made it zero sum game ( in respect to hours the hour worked always equalled hour on bike no gains or losses of hours overall some may rather be at work) there be preference time on bike.
    If not zero sum someone that does not like cycling may rather spend an hour and half at work for an hour cycling someone that does not may rather trade 20 minutes of work for an extra 40 minute commute. For some may be how pleasant the hours are, an hour in work someone could be on phone, smoking, eating a sandwich, writing an email, watching tv, whereas on a bike this may be more problematic. For car ownership if consider it a yes or no (car non divisible) , what makes up the utility curve the trade-off have to clear in a narrow window that is commuting distance to work because of the likely variation in curves for many it’s unlikely that would meet in window unless live near work. For example if the car is a yes or no it may be many people would not want to cycle 23 hours to work and have 21 hours at work. Of course if the car was divisible so could have certain amount of car, with hire car or sharing may be bigger window.
    If could vary hours worked, distance to work, and how much car you had then could work beautifully.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  23. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    *Waves to Stephan, Roibeard and newtoit*

    The Inch is a funny old place. It dates from the early fifties and was initially used principally to house people from the Caltongate tennements, but also included special purpose housing for certain professions. There's a street that originally housed only police officers for instance.

    When it was built it was used as a test-bed for council housing prototypes. It's for this reason that there are rows with copper-sheathed roofs, rows with pan-tiles and rows with slates. The build quality of the houses is superb - hard Niddrie brick - and the garden spaces are generous.

    The combination has led to a very interesting 'community'. The last of the original inhabitants are still on the go, but ageing. Their children have often inherited the houses after they were sold by the council - very few are still in municipal hands. Because the area has a reputation for being slightly tasty (it's actually anything but) the houses were quite cheap and for a while now professionals have been moving in to get the garden space and good bus links and access to the green spaces.

    So, you have a mix of old school working class and their kids (often in trades) alongside slightly hippyish bourgeois types. There are many European citizens too. So what of cycling and walking?

    The original population include some people who used to cycle as recreation, back when cycle clubs were aligned with left-wing politics and associated with the working class. They don't cycle now because they can't or see bikes as low status. Their kids don't seem to cycle at all once they're adult though they do mope about on bikes when they're younger.

    Beside that there are several hard-core bicylist households. I know of six, but there will be many more. They're all 'incomers' as far as I can make out.

    The Inch is of course perfect cycling distance from town - it's a casual cycle but a long walk. However, there are some real physical obstacles in the shape of the Lady Road junctions and the slope to the south up to Gilmerton. I never see anyone cycling to the high school.

    I'd guess that the main issue is the association of car use with social aspiration. There's also, I suspect, a feminist issue in the perceived incompatibility of a highly-groomed appearance with wind, rain and chain-oil. I have no idea what to do about either other than just building proper cycle lanes and letting people find them. It would make a great pilot project.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    Interesting background info

    "I have no idea what to do about either other than just building proper cycle lanes and letting people find them."

    A proper walk/cycle crossing of Old Dalkeith Road would be a good start - linking to Craigmillar Country Park and on to the Innocent and back way into RIE.

    Next step a new thread on here - 'cycling around The Inch'.

    Make them 'built it' - and the incomers will come!

    Posted 8 years ago #
  25. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Give them an Inch and they'll go for Miles!

    Forgot to mention - the bike stands at the Walter Scott shops currently have one of the saddest fossilised BSOs I've ever seen. Full-suss 'mountain' bike, with the rear chain stays labelled 'Bose', presumably as a nod to the great Franch brand Bos.

    @Weezee is sometimes spotted on the Urban Arrow in the Inch - must get a fair few odd looks.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Next step a new thread on here - 'cycling around The Inch'.

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    Retweeted by Andrew Burns

    "

    Rangifer Revolution (@RangiRevo)
    04/02/2016, 13:23
    Now sometimes even see cycling in Craigmillar/Inch. Centre is easy, 1950s suburbs real test @AndrewDBurns @StartOnFriday @edinburgh @LAHinds

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  28. @iwrats Thanks for the background info, that's also my impression. Interesting to hear about all the "hidden" cyclists - we should form a Inch user group?

    Interesting you mention European families. A friend (UK native) commented to me at Christmas that Craigmillar Park has become much more lively because of "the Polish families, it's just normal for them to go out to the park with their kids". The park definitely has improved a lot also thanks to the Rangers keeping the paths tidy and the playground, you see lots of people there (although I haven't checked their passports/nationalities...).

    Lidl is full of Polish people and occasional Germans, and from the Inch it's so convenient to cycle or walk through Craigmillar Park to Lidl.

    @chdot Crossing Old Dalkeith Road: We will get dropped kerbs at the two little houses at the Recycling Centre Road in the next few months, and a short footpath (along the mud desire line) that connects these to the existing footpaths at Glenallan Drive/Dinmont Drive. It's not perfect, but should make crossing there much much much easier, and you don't have to cycle up ODR to get into Walter Scott Av

    Posted 8 years ago #
  29. So I started an Inch thread now so that this can co back to modal shifts - is this how the forum is supposed to work?

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=16033&replies=1#post-211207

    Posted 8 years ago #
  30. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Stephan,

    Yes, when we're out for a jog or a dander on Craigmillar Hill we do like to play guess the nationality. It is indeed rare for the indigenous population to be taking the air and refreshing to see Polish families out with their kids.

    "The park definitely has improved a lot also thanks to the Rangers keeping the paths tidy"

    If you turn right immediately after the entrance to Lady Susan's walk from Old Dalkeith Road there's a path that was blocked by a fallen poplar two years ago. It's on one of my training runs and I got fed up waiting for it to be moved so got busy with a bow saw. Nearly recruited a work crew just from passers-by. The will is there and I would like to see the Inch functioning as a community. First step may be to wrest Inch House from the rather unlikely political party into whose hands it has fallen.

    "is this how the forum is supposed to work?"

    You'll soon see that your new thread gets onto a discussion about the relative merits of samphire and quince. That's how the forum is meant to work.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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