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I was surprised the first time I went to Ben Nevis that there wasn't any sort of signage that explained what a serious undertaking an ascent might be in the wrong conditions.
Very much in keeping with Scottish mountaineering tradition, but I wonder if an exception should be made given that it's often spoken of as if it's just another tourist attraction and you can get directions up there on Google Maps.
@jonty
I say no. There are signs at the entrance to a few areas warning of the lack of mobile coverage and I'd remove those too. Once you start trying to take responsibility for people where do you stop?
I mean, someone who looks at the Ben and sees a casual February stroll just isn't going to take any sign seriously. I think signage would fail and that would lead to hiking licences and insurance.
@chdot
I would not deport these dudes. In fact I'd encourage them to stay and acquire the skills to stay safe, especially the skill of turning back which is the key one unless you're in the SAS.
I considered the slippery slope argument, but fundamentally I think it's OK to see Ben Nevis as an exception for lots of reasons. It's pretty reasonable to imagine a multilingual sign might have stopped these people - they sound well-intentioned by naive. The way it's marketed sometimes you'd think it's like the stroll from a layby to a viewpoint.
I wonder if these folks had ever seen snow before?
@TheForthBridges
**** QC is open again as of 10.45 ****
So no need to think about any other way of getting to work.
Imagine if we actually had to adapt to deal with a climate emergency?
ScotGov did resist the temptation to send the public transport around by Kincardine and open up FRB to private traffic. Even with the shorter faster PT route many stayed in their cars...
@Jonty
Didn't know it was marketed as such. That's certainly foolish. You should be drawn to mountains, not pushed to them.
Think their hands were tied on FRB by the works currently going on.
Wonder if there will be a rush to ensure it's available next year...
https://www.visitscotland.com/see-do/iconic-scotland/
Just an example, but on this list Ben Nevis is just another desination next to Glenfinnnan Viaduct. It does link to further information with some cautious words at the bottom, but you can imagine this or a similar list inducing someone to just chuck them both on an itinerary for the day without appreciating the differences between them.
I'm with IWRATS and the mountain rescue guys. Where do you draw the line?
Jonty, the "Ben Nevis visitor centre" has stuff about "climbing Ben Nevis is like climbing X flights of stairs", "it is colder at the top than down here" and "coming down is hard work", but of course you have to go inside to see that kind of thing and I don't know if it is open in February.
I don't know if there's any kind of signage at the bottom of the "Tourist Track". I have seen signs along the lines of "you are now entering a remote area, are you sure you have the skills and equipment?" elsewhere in Scotland (leaving Inverie in Knoydart, for one, if I recall correctly).
Yeah, that sort of signage is what I'm talking about - just a simple 'look, you're on your own here and this isn't just a stroll.' Multilingual probably the key thing. Maybe even just during winter. The MR folks do seem to be of the opinion that this was naivety rather than arrogance.
I think it's reasonable to draw a line at the one Munro that gets mentioned in all the tourist guides and attracts international fame, rather than just in walking/mountaineering guidebooks. It's also fairly unusual amongst the wider body of Munros in that it does have an (initially) signed and heavily engineered tourist path.
I feel like the accessibility/danger ratio of Scottish mountains and particularly Ben Nevis is quite internationally unusual. But that might be nonsense.
Anyway, don't feel particularly strongly about this but was surprised when I went there having seen how often touristy people get into trouble there. In another country the tourist track might simply get closed, but that's obviously not how we roll here.
This kind of thing. That's the very sign I mentioned upthread.
There are signs a bit like this on Ben Ledi after you cross the final forest track when ascending from Strathyre Cabins and also at the start of the path up Stank Glen.
Gist is "no waymarkers, rough path, are you prepared/equipped?" sort of thing.
I think the park authority put them there. Different management practices for the Trossachs and Nevis range?
Ah, cool. I've been to Knoydart but never saw that.
I suppose they have the issue that what is essentially a residential road quickly turns into one of the wildest tracks in the country!
Actually when I go to other countries and visit ruins where you can climb up steps without railings/ropes I think we are molly-coddled to death here.
Scottish wilderness doesn't look that wild. It's not like New Zealand where you can be miles from the nearest dwelling. When I first climbed a Scottish mountain (Aonach Eagach) I was astonished that you could see a road and houses throughout the ridge walk. Is this what you call remote? And it's so small!
Then it began to snow (it was June).
@laidback - this is what we are dealing with - you can break your commute at ferry toll or inverkeithing station and take public transport, it will be quicker.
No thanks I am away around the country in my car.
'Aonach Eagach'
I once slept on the ridge. I was never good at getting up early so usually left late, and came off the hills in the evening. This day I was right in the middle of the ridge when it became clear I wasn't going to get down before dark. Even mid summer it was cold. Tore pages out of my munro book to keep myself warm.
Some kind folks gave me mars bars the next day as I was making my way down at 6:30am.
Ice falling from bridge cables is not unique to Scotland...
Nor is it new. Ice helped bring down ITA's second television mast on Emley Moor in 1969.
"No thanks I am away around the country in my car."
Also I will complain on Twitter about the disruption and congestion (I have) caused, and blame it all on the government.
@Arellcat - I love the image of you tearing pages out of your munro book for survival sake.
Way more of a sacrifice than Aron Ralston in 127 Hours chopping off his arm.
I think it was baldcyclist who was burning his munro book...
This thread is a particularly fine example of CCE thread drift.
There's another sign of the kind I mentioned above on the way to Ben Vrackie above Pitlochry, I think. And while looking for a suitable image I found a picture of another sign I've seen: it's at the Fairy Pools on Skye and says roughly "You are now leaving the Fairy Pools area and entering a challenging mountain environment..." again when we were there it felt really obvious that there's a difference between following a nice broad path by a river at the bottom of a corrie and trying to go up the steep walls of said corrie...
"burning his munro book"
Stuffing the pages up my jumper, good insulation.
Sorry Baldcyclist, wrong munro stuffer.
It drifts in and out of topic like a snowdrift. Ice ice baby
While we're on/off/back-on the topic of warning signs, there is one on the NCN over Drumochter, in a similar vein: "you are heading out into the middle of nowhere. It may look alright here, but it could be dreadful there". Here you go...
“No food or shelter for 30km”
Meanwhile the main sign is in miles.
So the warning is for non-UK people??
@Greenroofer - gosh I once cycled the other way over Drumochter oblivious to warning signs on one balmy day. I did have to stop at someone's house to get water.
There are a couple similar in that there England
that was not there when I did the c2c when my mate just about ended up in someones living room due to his dodgy brakes and a t junction on a very steep hill.
IIRC NTS have put a sign up along the path in to the Hidden Valley in Glencoe to warn of the narrow path and steep drops. I think there was talk of putting a sign up somewhere in the area around Clachaig Gully - maybe at the top, to dissuade people from trying to descend the steep and very loose path on descent from the Aonach Eagach (I found a lengthy discussion about it here - note the reference to a sign that used to be in the Am Bodach car park at the eastern end of the ridge which is where most folks start from; I have a feeling that Hamish MacInnes might have been responsible for that). Although, people who regularly go in to the hills are agin such things proliferating willy-nilly.
A pal of mine married an American lass while he was working out in CA. Soon after they arrived they went on a trip to the Lake District. She was astonished to discover that there wasn't a waymark or sign post at every trail junction in the fells (and that's despite the Lakes being, I'd guess, one of the most heavily signposted upland recreation areas in the UK).
I believe that one difference between the UK and other places is that our hills tend to be largely denuded of trees so you can generally see where you've come from, where you're going, and which bits might be best to avoid (weather allowing). I sometimes find hillwalking on the continent quite claustrophic compared to the UK because, until you get above the actual treeline, you spend so much time following trails through large expanses of dense forest with no real idea of where you are without reference to a map and waymarks (I actually think that GPS can be more useful in such areas than on the Scottish hills, given good visibility.)
As far as remoteness is concerned, distance is not the only factor. Going back to the Aonach Eagach: you may be able to see the road from the ridge, but you ain't gonna to be able to simply jog down to the road if something goes awry part way along the traverse. And "going awry" can simply be someone getting cragfast on the scrambly bits.
Distance-wise, some of the Munros are pretty remote. A'Mhaighdean is generally accepted is being the most remote - the walk in from Poolewe is given as 22.5km in the SMC book. I've not been up there, but I have done Seana Bhraigh which was quite far enough thank you at a round trip of over 25km. Up in the north-west, although it's not as spectacularly hilly as the begging honeypots, there is some very remote country: mostly flat and very boggy (which is why folks don't tend to go there) but often miles from anything resembling civilisation.
A very interesting collection!
I suppose we will never know whether viewers of these signs have gone on to be more cavalier in other outdoor pursuits which are unprotected by signage.
The far North is indeed a funny place. Years ago on a long summer multi-day we scoffed at the Lairg B&B owner who warned us to be careful of adders, yet a few days later when walking beside Morven we saw five in one day. No signs there, but the roadkill one we met in the morning at least gave us an idea of what to look for.
@Rosie: Scottish wilderness doesn't look that wild.
There is an old story about a party of climbers from various alpine countries being hosted by the fledgling SMC in Edinburgh. The story goes that they were impressed by Arthur's Seat and started discussing the likely best routes, possible places to bivouac en route and so forth. They were rather taken aback to be told that you could pop up and back in a couple of hours.
Very likely apocryphal, but there is a lesson buried in there: that what you think you see may be conditioned by what you're used to seeing.
And, as you hinted, even a fairly benign-looking landscape can change its character very quickly when the weather turns.
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