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Do we need an Indyref2 thread?

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  1. crowriver
    Member

    My only experience of private schooling was failing the 11+ when my mum tried to get me a scholarship into a local private grammar school when we lived in England. She maybe didn't realise that private tuition and coaching was something other parents were paying for to help their children pass the exam: she thought I'd get in because I was bright. I was completely lost as my primary schooling was no longer gearing pupils up for this.

    I think there are state schools and there are state schools: there's sometimes an enormous variation in pupil demographics, resources and quality of teaching. This seems especially the case in larger cities. The postcode lottery is a very real phenomenon in Edinburgh. Some schools approach the comprehensive ideal with a good mix of pupil backgrounds; others are either populated with a preponderance of pupils from more prosperous homes; still others struggle with a large proportion of pupils suffering the effects of multiple deprivation.

    It seems to me that when children are dealing with all kinds of problems in their lives through no fault of their own, then quality of teaching can only go so far. Unfortunately, household income and the educational attainment of parents are the biggest factors in determining how well kids do at school (leaving aside questions like additional support needs for the moment).

    (By the way I'm quite enjoying this parallel meta discussion of education. All triggered by gembo's mention of John Swinney?)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  2. gembo
    Member

    @crowriver, yes I find the parallel discussion is almost a specific concrete example of nwhat a country can do. I am praying to all at Valhalla that we do not end up with the corrupt and bogus Free Schools. The english system is off to hell in a hand cart.

    I was at the eminent Prof Deary's lecture two years back (superb if you ever get the chance to hear him on IQ and history). At the canapes afterwards the spuse of anpother prof was telling us when he was a lad at his preparatory school they were taught IOntelligence every wednesday afternoon. This was so they would pass the 11 +

    Speaking of Valhalla I was reADING THE NORSE LEGEND OF hOW thE wALL wAS bUILT AT aSGARD last night. Boy did Loki have to take the hit for the team in that one.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    "Unfortunately, household income and the educational attainment of parents are the biggest factors in determining how well kids do at school"

    Not universally true, but a good approximation.

    How much parents/responsible adults care/encourage are also factors (not wholly dependent on income/formal educational attainment). Sometimes 'encouragement' can be more in-line with parental expectations, which might not be in the interest of individual children.

    Every school/child/teacher is different. Headteachers can make a big difference to tone/ethos/teacher selection etc. Parental involvement - especially in things like fundraising - will affect resources and opportunities.

    Education is 'political' in ways that are not always helpful - not always with the 'best interests' of individual, or groups of, children.

    Generally schooling in the U.K. focuses too much on measurable results and (generally again) more on 'academic' subjects than practical. Etc.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  4. wee folding bike
    Member

    There is some degree of value what is measured rather than measure what is of value.

    We all add an extra something, sometimes just by being different from what they see around them elsewhere.

    I don't think I ever quite "got" an Inspector Calls but I watch Mr Sim anyway.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "

    And the anti-independence parties look unlikely to repeat their 2014 co-operation in the Better Together campaign. Despite coming out as the winners in that referendum, the cross-party effort is seen as a big factor in the decision of traditional Labour voters to desert the party. Even if they agreed independence was a bad idea, Labour politicians throwing in their lot with Tories was a step too far for many. It is difficult to know how an umbrella No organisation would work this time.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/ian-swanson-is-this-really-groundhog-day-well-yes-and-no-1-4391793

    Posted 8 years ago #
  6. wee folding bike
    Member

  7. Baldcyclist
    Member

    As you were.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39293513

    Posted 8 years ago #
  8. zesty
    Member

    Common sense prevails

    Posted 8 years ago #
  9. mgj
    Member

    Because London politicians telling Scots that they cant do things has always worked so well.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  10. crowriver
    Member

    Scottish Parliament will vote to seek a Section 30 order to hold indyref2 this week anyway. May unlikely to turn that down, but most probably when Westminster votes to give Scotland referendum there will be a clause specifying it should be held after Brexit negotiations concluded.

    Which is what I have said all along. Does not make sense to vote without knowing what, if any, deal UK will strike with EU in 2019.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    "

    .@scotgov is not proposing #scotref now...but when the terms of Brexit clear and before it is too late to choose an alternative path. 1/4

    "

    https://twitter.com/nicolasturgeon/status/842365797259456512

    Posted 8 years ago #
  12. ih
    Member

    @crowriver I expect May will flatly reject the Indyref2 proposal, possibly with some warm, meaningless words that "sometime in the future.."

    WM too obsessed at the moment with Brexit and May does not want a two front war. She will risk peeing off Scots a bit (hoping we/they will lose enthusiasm for it) to get on with leaving EU. May's and others's view that Indyref should only be when the terms of Brexit are clear is disingenuous because 2 years will only see the divorce settlement. This will be followed by several years of transition arrangements and negotiations for the future relationship with EU. My guess is that it won't be settled until the WM parliament after the next one. There will always be an excuse to postpone Indyref2. I think Sturgeon knows that her timetable is the only option. It's like the time of the twa Queens again.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

  14. zesty
    Member

    WM too obsessed at the moment with Brexit

    Like sturgeon is too obsessed with independence instead of doing her job of running this country.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. barnton-to-town
    Member

    "Like sturgeon is too obsessed with independence instead of doing her job of running this country."

    You'll have missed that manifesto pledge then (from both the SNP and the Greens), leading to the SNP winning 47% of the public vote, and pro-independence parties having a majority at Holyrood?

    More than enough of the public are well happy with how the SNP run the country, given they had a majority in govt last time round, and only just missed out this time round, despite an increased share of the vote.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. stiltskin
    Member

    By my reckoning, pro union parties got more votes than pro-independence. Besides May has not said no to another ref, she is just not allowing Sturgeon to control the timing.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  17. Frenchy
    Member

    By my reckoning, pro union parties got more votes than pro-independence.

    Correct for constituency votes, not for list votes.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  18. LaidBack
    Member

    Extracts from 'Citizens of Nowhere' by Mike Small, Bella Caledonia

    "The irony of The Prime Minister that Nobody Elected arguing about people making decisions ‘in the blind’ in the context of Brexit – a vote based on lies for an outcome still bafflingly unclear – is hysterical."

    There is also the very real suspicion that the Conservatives want to make sure that the 170,000 + EU citizens living in Scotland are disenfranchised before any referendum.
    It will be interesting to see if Labour and the Liberals fall into line with this, because ultimately this is not about the First Minister, or the SNP, it’s about the credibility and status of the Scottish Parliament and those who are elected to sit in it.
    If Britain exists only because no-one can vote to leave it, it is finished. That is political capture not parliamentary democracy.
    Still, it should make Theresa May’s proposed ‘tour of the devolved nations’ a lot of fun."

    Posted 8 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

  20. chdot
    Admin

  21. gembo
    Member

    @laidback, I know you love your bella and I think it is good too but what is a very real suspicion?

    Is it a suspicion that the suspect suspects is true?

    In days when newspapers had sub editors and were pushed for space that would have been changed to 'suspicion' I suspect

    Posted 8 years ago #
  22. LaidBack
    Member

    Gembo - yes, BC needs a good sub editor.

    I see our old friend Jackie Kemp has changed her mind and is now writing for BC.

    T May says that people are sick of referenda. This might be true. The Tories would love boredom to break out to let them get on with whatever half baked idea takes their fancy.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  23. Nelly
    Member

    "Tories would love boredom to break out to let them get on with whatever half baked idea takes their fancy"

    Boredom getting less likely by the day.

    On R4 this morning, some tory MP from the Cotswolds was talking mass rebellion against the tory plans to strip money from the education budget. When a lifer tory who has never voted against the govt says that, you know they are in soapy bubble.

    But its all small potatoes really against the macro picture -

    They all (including Labour, sad to say) voted like the lapdogs they are to accept the Brexit bill and god only knows how that's going to end up in a year or two.

    I wonder if T May will end up being the tories version of Gordon Brown - PM by default and remembered for all the wrong reasons?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  24. zesty
    Member

    You'll have missed that manifesto pledge then (from both the SNP and the Greens), leading to the SNP winning 47% of the public vote, and pro-independence parties having a majority at Holyrood?

    Can't be helped if some of the voting public are only voting SNP cause they want independence, not because they think they are doing a good job!

    Education under SNP has fallen to its worst level in performance. We no longer performs above the international average in any of the three core subject areas: maths, reading & science

    Posted 8 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Well, I’m glad that’s over and we can all get on with our lives, undisturbed by the prospect of a two-year campaign leading to indyRef2. Launched on Monday, sunk on Thursday – a mercifully short voyage.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/brian-wilson-thank-goodness-the-four-day-war-is-over-1-4394217

    Posted 8 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    From last link

    "

    The Brexit Secretary, David Davis, explained this week how sophisticated and expensive technology will be used to monitor traffic and goods as they cross, post-Brexit, between the two parts of Ireland, to avoid the need for physical border posts. That is not an option available to Scotland, even if it was desirable.

    "

    "That is not an option"

    Why?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

  28. Firedog
    Member

    zesty, I can understand the view of those who would rather not have a referendum. I can appreciate that many might vote no. That's democracy.

    What I can't understand is people expressing pleasure when the attempted exercise of a democratic mandate is blocked.

    That gets me worried.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  29. acsimpson
    Member

    The trouble with manifesto's is that they aren't referendums. There are so many pledges and so few parties that it becomes a case of finding one which you most agree with rather than one you fully agree with. There are bound to be any voters for SNP and Green (especially green) who voted for them despite their pledges to fight for independence rather than because of it.

    Those who are keen to see countryside tarmaced over to increase their ability to break the speed limit between Inverness and Perth above all else for instance may well have voted SNP. Likewise those who would rather see sustainable policies would head towards Green.

    To call an election result a mandate for independence when the referendum results didn't support it is bad science.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  30. barnton-to-town
    Member

    "To call an election result a mandate for independence when the referendum results didn't support it is bad science."

    I agree every political party has policies that are liked, no so well liked, hated by any individual that votes for them.

    You choose who you vote for dependent on your perception of how much a party will deliver versus your priorities.

    By making that choice, you de facto give them a mandate to pursue whatever policies they have said they will should they achieve 'power'.

    Past referendums don't matter. Previous statements don't matter (aka "once in a generation", "once in a lifetime") ... but if the claim persists that they DO matter, then I'm hoisting my flag to Thatcher's statement that all Scotland needed to do to deliver independence was supply a majority of nationalist MPs to Westminster. Job done.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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