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Cycle lanes - good or bad?

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    A couple of post from the Marchmont Road thread.

    POSTED BY Kim

    "Given that the cycle lanes in questing are sub 2m wide and that there is increasing evidence that narrow cycle lanes increase the risk to cyclist. Maybe that is no bad thing. If you want to know more, there are a couple of papers here and here. No cycle lane is safer than a sub standard cycle lane."

    POSTED BY DdF

    "Regarding the papers referenced by Kim. First, the Parkin paper does not show or claim to show that cycle lanes (of whatever width) 'increase the risk'. It shows that on 40 or 50mph roads (not 30mph) cars pass somewhat further out if there is no cycle lane. Parkin also mentions (can't remember if it's in this paper or elsewhere) that motorists are wary of crossing white lines - he is referring to the centre line of the road, but presumably equally the cycle lane line, in which case that plus could well balance or outweigh the minus of most cars passing you at say 2.0m rather than 2.1m.

    The Warrington 'paper' really shows nothing. It is pictures picked out to support a case, but with no data or analysis. You can see how ridiculous that is by noting that the Warrington paper's pictures are wildly more alarmist than is shown by Parkin's research. Even given that the pictures have been chosen to support the case, personally I think I'd prefer the cycle lane in 2 of the 3 examples shown - certainly the one with no cycle lane and the white lorry bearing down on you from behind!

    Another interesting point - a Napier Uni paper showed that motorists are far more likely to keep out of both bus and cycle lanes if they have a coloured surface. Neither of the above papers even state whether the lanes they studied had a coloured surface.

    If anyone is interested enough, there's more on all this in various documents at http://www.spokes.org.uk - downloads - technical. Perhaps especially the 0909 paper, the 0710 one, and the Napier one at the end.

    Dave

    PS - Some cycle lanes are badly designed, some badly maintained, I totally agree with that!!

    But overall it seems very likely that the widespread presence of onroad coloured lanes and ASLs is one of the main factors that brought about Edinburgh's increasing bike use over the last 10ish years, at a time when it was declining in most of Britain. Some of the evidence for this is on p7 of spokes bulletin 105."

    Posted 14 years ago #

  2. chdot
    Admin

    As found on http://citycycling.co.uk/issue55/videos2.html

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Widget

    Posted 14 years ago #

  3. SRD
    Moderator

    Some places they really matter -- the Marchmont Road/Beaufort Road intersection is a good example -- as you should be able to see in picture there is this funny parking bit off to the left, and if cycle lane not there, cars would just sprawl everywhere. It is bad enough as it is (cars try to reverse out from parking!), but would be much worse, without vestiges of red. Interesting in the googlemaps pic, no cars are forming an informal left turn lane, as they tend to do in my experience.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  4. Dave
    Member

    Most of the time when there is a cycle lane, I either want to ride on the white line, or just to the right of it, so it doesn't benefit me at all (for example, when there are parked cars a good rule of thumb is that anywhere inside the cycle lane, is the death zone for doors).

    However, if you compare Edinburgh as a whole, the cycling levels are undoubtedly much higher with all the red paint, than they would be without - and we are safer in numbers.

    So the individual's pain at being forced to ride in the door zone by motorists who sweep past with merciless lane discipline, is still the collective gain.

    Such is the awkwardness of real life.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  5. Dave
    Member

    WRT DdF's original point, we basically don't have enough research to make a call either way on the overall effect.

    Most collisions are not 'rear enders' but conflicting junction movements (left, right hook, etc). Even if it was proven that being in a narrow 1m cycle lane did reduce the chance of being struck from behind, this would only address a small minority of accidents (albiet a large proportion of cyclists' fear).

    It would be more interesting to see a study whether lanes that encourage cyclists into the gutter around junctions, lead to higher accident rates than situations where they take a prominent line in the traffic flow. How such a study could be achieved, is another question.

    The other difficulty is, of course, that you can easily measure passing distance but not quality of pass. I ride wide in the road and undoubtedly this often reduces my overtaking space, especially when there is oncoming traffic. But the difference is that everybody who passes me has to slow down, think, and make a decision to proceed, rather than the bike lane situation where you need give the cyclist zero attention, because you're in your own lane.

    This is an exchange I am very happy to make, but if I was used as study data it would show the opposite, that riding away from the gutter causes "more danger", by the crude metrics we're using.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  6. SRD
    Moderator

    My other vote for most imcomprehensible bit of planning: car park exit direct into cyclelane/ASL at Holy Corner.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  7. Min
    Member

    Depends.

    Wide and well placed cycle lanes are a good thing. Most are neither and I disagree with the policy of painting unsafe sections of road red-especially next to parked cars and round the edge of roundabouts etc- and expecting cyclists to use them. ASL are also a good idea but the majority of motorists seem to completely ignore them whether painted or not. Fair enough if they are moving forward and the lights suddenly go red but most times they just deliberately drive straight on to them. And lets not forget that large proportion of cycle lanes are actually car parks anyway, no matter what colour they are painted.

    And as for space-on Old Deathtrap Road AKA Old Dalkeith Road in the snow recently, I had to cycle on the road as the cycle lanes were covered with slush. Drivers gave me LOADS and I mean LOADS of space. Normally they just scream past a couple of feet away.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  8. Kim
    Member

    Well that post was effect at stirring up debate ;-)

    The thing that really worries me is the not the effectiveness of cycle lanes, but on the underling assumptions made by road engineers in the design of on road cycle lanes. If you look at the Parkin & Meyers paper, on page 22 there is an example of design guidance. The assumption is that the cyclist should be riding 25cm from the kerb! Gutter hugging is dangerous, the safe distance from the kerb should be about 80-100cm. As Dave points out "Most collisions are not 'rear enders' but conflicting junction movements (left, right hook, etc)" and gutter hugging is a significant factor in these "accidents". These badly design cycle lanes re-enforce the attitude that the cyclist place is in the gutter.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  9. Dave
    Member

    @Min, I don't find drivers to be too bad about ASLs in Edinburgh - certainly not the red ones with white lines still visible. (There are a couple on one of my routes which have been dug up and not repainted, and they are now utterly ignored). I suspect this might depend on route and/or time of day however.

    @Kim, one example which litters Edinburgh is the bizarre way that the bus lanes break at junctions (presumably so that motorists don't have to drive into bus lanes) and a thin cycle lane is painted right at the give-way line instead.

    If ever there was a terrible idea, it is moving into the side of the road at a junction to 'fit in' to the short stretch of cycle lane, yet that is exactly what they encourage (and I even find myself doing it, sometimes - normally I ride in bus lanes over the 'B' of 'bus', if not a little further out)

    See Streetview

    Posted 14 years ago #

  10. Kim
    Member

    I have noticed over the last few years, that drivers are slowly beginning to take the ASLs seriously, although I suspect that few of them as aware that they are legal obliged to do so. I have on a few occasion attempted to educate drivers about Rule 178 of the Highway Code and helpfully point out that by crossing the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red, they risk getting three points on their licence. Unfortunately police drivers seem to be unaware of requirements of the Road Traffic Act 1988 section 36 and the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, as they are some of the worst offenders.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  11. chdot
    Admin

    The Council view is that they try to provide 1.5m cycle lanes "as a minimum wherever possible" (not sure if the Marchmont Road ones are that wide in all places, certainly the Kilgraston Road one can't be). In spite of the problems of (lack of) maintenance, the Council is working on the principle that 'many people need more encouragement through the presence of visible infrastructure'.

    This is a generally accepted view by many people who want to encourage cycling. I think it would be very hard to prove (particularly in Edinburgh) that cycle lanes discourage cycling. Clearly it seems likely (there may even be 'evidence') that they encourage to people to try cycling in the city.

    It's reasonably to assume that red surfaces (not least in ASLs) help. The Council does have evidence that in some places where the red has worn away reported accidents have increased.

    More cyclists means (in general) more safety for cyclists. I think it's very doubtful that removing cycle lanes would be in any way beneficial. Certainly the maintenance is a REAL problem and there are some places where there is poor design/implementation.

    However I am very confident that individual 'facilities' such as the cycling lane on Bruntsfield Place at Whitehouse Loan have made a significant difference to driver behaviour (and cyclist confidence/safety).

    We need more/better/wider lanes, more ASLs and red surfacing AND a proper programme of making sure they are looked after. More research into the most effective type/design/width etc. would be useful too.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  12. Kim
    Member

    I agree there is a very real problem with is poor design/implementation, and I am not suggesting the wholesale removal of cycle lanes. Just suggesting that this bad design/implementation creates dangers for the novice cyclist which it is in tended to encourage. Without dough the best way of increasing cycle safety is to encourage more people to cycle, it has been shown that when cycle use doubles, the risk of injury per cyclist falls by 35% to 40%.

    My personal feeling is that if the budget for cycling infrastructure is squeezed, then more ASLs and red surfacing AND a proper programme of making sure they are looked after, should be the priority.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  13. Min
    Member

    Dave- I think ASL observance must indeed depend on the route as your experience does not match mine. Having said that, there wasn't too much encroachment on the way home this evening, just to show me!

    You make an interesting point about bike lanes increasing cycling though. We got a leaflet through the other week (from Greener Leith?) which had results from a poll which showed people would be more likely to take up cycling if there were more bike lanes. Behaviour of other road users was hardly an issue. However I can't help wondering how many of these new cyclists give up after a few near misses on their marvellous cycle lanes.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    "I can't help wondering how many of these new cyclists give up after a few near misses on their marvellous cycle lanes."

    It's an interesting/valid question.

    In Edinburgh, at least, it's clear that there is an increase in the number of cyclists.

    It would be unfortunate if all 'new cyclists attracted by better infrastructure' (if only) gave up quickly and the survivors (sic) were not influenced by red paint (or anything else).

    Unfortunate and unlikely. BUT there really should be some sort of assessment of what does and doesn't make a difference in practice (in Edinburgh).

    There are plenty of 'design guides' and examples of 'good practice' from all over the world. In the UK there's too much inertia/status quo/acceptance of a 'car culture'.

    However Edinburgh claims to want to be a cycling city (or is that Cycling City?) - '15% of journeys by 2020' etc. It really needs to show some initiative(s).

    There's still little understanding that there's more to all this than spending/wasting money on 'unnecessary' red tarmac or paying for proper Cycle Training in schools, etc.

    It should be about making Edinburgh a better place to live, work and visit.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  15. Min
    Member

    Yes indeed. The council should consider actually asking actual cyclists what they think is needed. Oh dammit, those flying pigs have just pooed on my washing again..

    Posted 14 years ago #

  16. gembo
    Member

    As a younger stoopider man I cycled everywhere (except the A77, only Wee Folding Bike would attempt that road which is basically a motorway). When I came back to cycling an older, slower and marginally wiser man I started on the off road infrastructure which dependent on where you live in Edinburgh is actually quite good. This allows you to build up your confidence and start introducing bits of road with cars into your routes. Sticking to familiar routes, avoiding tricky junctions etc is the next step. I never would have thought that cycle lanes would be much help as mostly cars are parked in them etc. I thnk I have posted before but City of Ed has seven maps covering the city showing safer routes in blue and with all schools marked. If you phone the cooncil on 200 2000 they will send you them (failing that, I have a stock)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  17. wee folding bike
    Member

    I'm tempted to take a we spin down the A77 now that it's empty.

    Twice I did 10 miles of the A74 where it crossed the border into England in '93.

    Once going to Whitehaven en route to Huddersfield and then a week later on the way back.

    I couldn't afford the bus fare.

    Why did you have a break from cycling? I missed a year in '84 - '85 because we didn't have a house and everything was farmed out to my aunties. Bike was in Paisley, dog was in Grangemouth, parents were in a wee cottage near Patna (Ayrshire). They bought a new house when I was in the USA over the summer of '85.

    Auntie over fed that dog. She left us a skinny Irish setter and came back like ginger St Bernard.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  18. gembo
    Member

    There are stretches of the A77 when I look over to the left I see roads going up towards Glasgow that look good for cycling on. Not the actual main road for me. Too scared.

    I was cycling back from the Carbeth Inn with Iain Hood who had borrowed without permission, Andy Mackay's bike when a driver overtook us then crashed into Iain as there was a car on the other side. Knocked him over the hedge and into field. The next week I was tanking down Great Western Road and rear mech went up into back wheel sending me to the ground. No helmets either time. I got rid of that bike as I believed it to be jinxed and took up running. I still regret this as running is rubbish compared to cycling.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    Someone want to start an A77 thread??

    Posted 14 years ago #

  20. wee folding bike
    Member

    The A77 already has it's own web page:

    http://www.a77safetygroup.com/

    Even when the A77 was the main road it didn't bother me. I never used it at night but I did once use it at 0600 in February.

    Andy MacKay used to have a black Elswick when we were at school.

    I had a back mech (Campag 1990 Croce d'Aune) crash into a back wheel when I was going down hill towards Bowling. I skidded to a stop but didn't have another incident. Westend Cycles put straight gauge spokes in as replacements for the broken ones... grrrrr. The '90 version of the mech had a strange design, the replacement was a normal parallelogram. Some people think the original unscrewed itself.

    What route are you aiming to use for your Troon - Edinburgh run?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  21. gembo
    Member

    I will find out. Might be the A70? no idea why it starts at Troon on the last leg as the ride is John O Groats to Edinburgh??? Or could go Troon Symington then A71 [err but that might invole the A77!!]. The organiser likes the quieter routes [did I say he organises an Edinburgh Paris event which goes from Edinburgh to Rosyth, then ferry to Zeebrugge then cycle through Belgium and France with police escort into center of Paris - nice)

    When the A7 was the main road I recall 3 lanes west and 3 lanes east and NO middle verge at about Eaglesham but I could have misremebered due to repressing the route as I was not a fan. The main road is quite good now.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  22. wee folding bike
    Member

    Three lanes with the middle one shared and down to one lane each way at Loganswell. A friend of mine went off the road there in a Vauxhall Viva. When he woke up he heard that Thistle had beaten Celtic in a cup final and didn't know if he was dead or not.

    I can't really think of a nice quiet route from Troon to Edinburgh. I went to a primary school near Drongan so I was using the A70 when I was about 10. The NCB lorries will be less common now.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  23. gembo
    Member

    In 1984 we took the Glasgow Uni Student Rep Council minibus down to Hunterston {still remember the Rep guy running after the bus as we went without him - what rebels eh?} it was the the day after the miners battle with the police - thousands involved. We had heard the Glasgow collecting centre was siphoning off funds so wanted to cut out the middle man. We found two miners at Hunterston then went on to the DronganMiners Welfare Club (near Patna). Donated the cash then went to Cumnock. I was sent into the chip shop as I could affect an ayrshire accent.

    Posted 14 years ago #

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