http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
"The True Cost of Commuting"
(41 posts)-
Posted 13 years ago #
-
And this is in the US where petrol is really cheap. This links in with this story on the BBC about how American's commutes are getting longer and longer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15207973
But it is all totally relevant here. So many people just have the expectation that they should live tens of miles away from where they work and just drive in and back every day.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Sorry Min but I beg to argue. People don't move out of town just so they can drive in. They move out of town as the standard of accomodation they prefer is cheeper.
If I could afford a 3 bed semi with front and back garden in a nice area with great schools locally I would gladly live in Edinburgh. I'm not saying that is what you have but I want this type of accomodation and most affordable accomodation of this type is out of town. I commute in by public transport (mostly) and cycle when the wind is not screeming across the Forth. I also choose my particular home town for its good train links, and friends who also live locally to our new home. I've lived in Edinburgh for many years in the past but we considered bringing up two children in a flat with no garden access directly from the flat not to our taste.
Posted 13 years ago # -
There are a lot of people like @DaveC. Unfortunately most of them underestimate the cost of car use (to them - never mind anyone else) and (probably) over estimate the non-financial value.
In addition there is an assumption that 'people want more roads/bridges' - and (worse) 'we'll encourage that attitude with our transport policies/spending'.
Valuing type/size/location of accommodation and factoring in suitability/availability of preferred amenities is highly subjective/individual.
Unless you have unlimited money (see new lottery winners...) there will always be a compromise somewhere.
There is often the additional problem with the way mortgages are calculated - i.e. income x X - no way of allowing for a slightly higher mortgage for people with low commute costs.
Posted 13 years ago # -
People also choose to commute because jobs are less permanent than home/family/school/friends these days and therefore moving house to follow a job often doesn't make much sense, especially if your partner works too.
Local employment is easier to find if you work in areas with jobs in every location (teaching/retail etc) but next to impossible in more specialised areas such as R&D where there are likely to only a few possible employers many of which have a short life expectancy.
In short, people need to go where work is these days but often can't uproot home and family to do it.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"People don't move out of town just so they can drive in. They move out of town as the standard of accomodation they prefer is cheeper."
Yes, they choose to spend xx hours stuck in a car every week so that they can "improve their quality of life".
Posted 13 years ago # -
It really is a question of priorities. We cope with cramped conditions and use communal garden and parks, and really value short commute. We would consider moving somewhere with a train link, but not somewhere completely car dependent.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Unfortunately most of them underestimate the cost of car use (to them - never mind anyone else) and (probably) over estimate the non-financial value.
If only people were so rational. I've lost count of the number of folk I know who say they 'need' a car. Usually irregardless of the number, type and distances of journeys they make in a normal day/week, nor the availability of alternative modes of transport. Though most will not state so explicitly, it usually boils down to not being able to imagine not having a car. After all, everyone they know (except me perhaps) has a car, so it is normal and expected to have a car, abnormal and seen as weird not to have one. It is so much a part of people's identity that rational alternatives very rarely enter their thoughts.
It's a bit like mobile phones: what do you mean you don't own one?
Posted 13 years ago # -
I've just done the costs. I can't park as I work in the city centre but assuming I could:
Train costs, Weekly 33, Monthly 126, Annualy ??
Car costs* (fuel only) 19, Monthly 76, Annualy 910* Not including running costs as the wife would not let me sell the car (but I've calc'd that at 1500 annually). Also not including parking costs as in my last job I worked in a Livingston style Business park where parking was free.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Daily parking in the car parks is about £10-£15 but there are season tickets which reduce this by a fair margin.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I agree with both alibali and SRD above.
I commute quite a long distance (Dundee), but by bike and train. Some years ago I worked in Glasgow, then Edinburgh (near where I live now). We chose to stay in Edinburgh rather than move because it has excellent public transport links to Scotland's other cities, and the North East of England/London. Which means that if/when my employer changes, it should hopefully be possible to reach the location without requiring a car. Alas it means no suburban detached house with garden for the kids, but they get to live in a great and handsome city with wonderful parks, amenities, and activities.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I think the stronger argument was based on time, although I'd already been open to that one since I drew a time to work circle (too crude based on the public transport map) and limited the accommodation search to within that radius.
It is, of course, very much a chicken and egg thing - some will find the home and then a job, others will find a job and then a home.
Robert
Posted 13 years ago # -
"Yes, they choose to spend xx hours stuck in a car every week so that they can "improve their quality of life".
Sorry Min, when I lived in East Anglia 'I choose to spend 5 hours stuck in a car every week so that I can "improve my quality of Home life . Incidentally I spend more time on the train than I did commuting in the car, but I can spend the time reading.
We looked at a 10 minute walking commute from my employer in Cambridge but all we could afford was in an estate called Arbury, which I would describe as being very similar to Craigmillar/Niddry.
Where we ended up living was 30miles away but on the edge of a really nice town (Bury St Edmunds) on the opp side of town to the worst estate [every town has one (or two)], where if accidentally left my car open no one would notice. This was very different from Arbury in Cambridge where if I left everything locked and bolted I still wouldn't trust it to never be broken into/stolen/vandelised. The local Schools are also a big decision maker. Schools in Bury were a lot better than in Arbury (in Cambridge) Both houses we looked at were the same price, the Arbury one we didn't go for was a Building Soc repo which was in a sory state of distress and required lots of work.
Posted 13 years ago # -
There was a lot of talk about 'Network effect' and 'critical mass' relating to mobile phones in the late 1990s/early 2000s. I think one can apply it to transportation networks/modes too.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I choose to (mostly) commute by train/bicycle despite the fact it adds an hour to my commute every day, it is (at the moment) *marginally* cheaper as long as I don't count how much I spend on bicycles/waterproofs/goodies for comfort/pleasure rather than necessity.
My choice of location affords a far nicer home life than I could enjoy for the same money in Edinburgh, but the location is almost exactly half way between my work and my partners work. Oh and working in or having backgrounds in transportation and budgeting we worked out *exactly* how much the various travel/accomodation options would have cost us before moving.
I moved out of town despite the commute.
Very little about housing and transportation is quite as simple as it first appears.
We should thererfore always be careful of broad brushes, sometimes they tar too much...Posted 13 years ago # -
@Smudge - presumably you 'enjoy' the cycling bit of the commute too? Maybe not in hail showers, but then that's only half the winter... ;)
Posted 13 years ago # -
Personally, the best thing about cities, is being able to leave them at 5pm!
Really, why would anybody choose to live in over-cramped, and way over-priced accommodation in a city? Couple that with the noise, drunks, smells, and higher crime rates in most cities.
The question shouldn't really be about how do we get people out of their cars? Rather, how can we make cities more affordable, cleaner, and less crime ridden places to live than they are at present? Suspect the car problem would solve itself if these issues were addressed....
I also find (if I get train and not cycle), that I can commute the 21 miles to work quicker on the train, than some of my colleagues who travel to work on a bus from the outskirts.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Really, why would anybody choose to live in over-cramped, and way over-priced accommodation in a city?
Personally, it's to avoid falling into the 'needing a car' trap. Colleagues of mine live in lovely country cottages in North East Fife, but consequently drive almost everywhere (school, shops, work) and get snowed in frequently during the winter. While I managed to make it into work during last winter's blizzards despite living 70 miles away, others claimed they couldn't as their cars needed digging out despite living only 6 miles away...
Couple that with the noise, drunks, smells, and higher crime rates in most cities.
Edinburgh has its share of these issues, but is perhaps unusual amongst cities in the UK in being relatively compact (walking and cycling viable options), having a good range of green spaces located centrally (eg. Holyrood park), and retaining quite good quality high density living accommodation in the central areas (tenements).
Hence the city is quite liveable in the most part, and many people do live in the city centre by choice. The 'doughnut effect' exists to some extent but is not as pronounced as in many English cities, let alone the very different urbanism of the US. I'd say Edinburgh feels more European.
Posted 13 years ago # -
@Crowriver, indeed I do, and it serves the purpose of keeping me fit(ter) as well without eating too much into a time poor lifestyle.
In a utopian world we would all live within walking/cycling distance of work/schools/shops etc. Unfortunately we don't and that is extremely unlikely to change.
What can change however is a move away from the absolute dependency on cars and, as is happening now, a move towards relatively more economical road vehicles.Posted 13 years ago # -
Crowriver - well put! and all true.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I used to live within 10 mins walk from work. Since we moved out of town and I have taken up cycle commuting I have lost about 7kg (and can eat more cake). When we use the car it tends to be out of town as we prefer the country and it is nicer going into town by bus.
Posted 13 years ago # -
@crowriver
You say that 'snowed in' thing like it's something to be avoided. I'm rarely happier than when I'm snowed in and prevented from getting to work. But I'd happily live in Edinburgh if someone would sell me a five-bedroom house with its own garden and allotment for the price of a two-bedroom Edinburgh flat.This is about personal priorities and choices and Mr Money Mustache (?) sounds like a cheapskate trying to raise his penny-pinching to the level of a moral or environmental principle. He's made his choices and now wants to feel smug and superior when someone makes different choices. He makes his case financially but his financial comparison is pretty bogus. He does a classic of these types of "cost-benefit" analyses of comparing two atypical examples: his "couple's" (I doubt they exist) high costs (and he uses a fictional couple so he can make up their costs and double many of them) and his own very low costs. He then multiplies those costs many times to give big numbers over 10 years and adds in a few high notional costs (like valuing your non-work time using your gross salary rate - a method that always means no-one should move a muscle). Doing this he "proves" that not is he very very clever but it's actually cheaper to be him. We should admire him twice over, which probably makes our admiration more cost-effective.
Posted 13 years ago # -
@Instography
"Mr Money Mustache (?) sounds like a cheapskate trying to raise his penny-pinching to the level of a moral or environmental principle"
He does make a few odd arguments, e.g.:
"At 80 minutes per day, the self-imposed driving would be adding the equivalent of almost an entire work day to each work week – so they would now effectively be working 6 workdays per week."
Sitting around in front of the TV must be 'wasting' time too in that case. I hope he makes valuable use of every second of the day.
Anyway, was there not a study done recently that suggested an ideal commute time? Something like 20 or 30 minutes. Basically gives you time to wind down at the end of the day.
Cracking photo at the start of the article.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Mr Money Mustache - Putting The cash in Your Stash
I am not linking such a name and strapline to a high degree of sophisticated analysis
Balerno was affordable (probably not now), cycle to work likely to be downhill, train,. bus, WoL path also for cycling, possible kayak option. Not bad. Schools good, in countryside, can get night bus at weekend. Taxi is dear. Snow has reappeared in last two years.
Many of us try to resolve our cognitive dissonance by loving the one we are with or if we cant resolve it, we move, if we can afford to.
Posted 13 years ago # -
But I'd happily live in Edinburgh if someone would sell me a five-bedroom house with its own garden and allotment for the price of a two-bedroom Edinburgh flat.
Wel, eexactly, I'd happily live in 5 bed house with garden etc, if someone would sell me one within edinburgh, for price of flat. But it won't happen, so I compromise and we live on top of each other, and like our location and our neighbours and hope that eventually we'll manage to trade up to something bigger.
Posted 13 years ago # -
But I'd happily live in Edinburgh if someone would sell me a five-bedroom house with its own garden and allotment for the price of a two-bedroom Edinburgh flat.
People have said this kind of thing to me before: "Come to Dundee" they say "it's so much cheaper"; "Move to Dunfermline, you get more for your money". No doubt that's true, though no-one used such an extreme comparison as you. Indeed I'm not sure that your example holds water. I suppose it depends where exactly the 5 bedroom house is located and where the 2 bedroom flat is located too. If we are talking the 1/4 million bracket then yes, both are feasible. However you can get 3 and 4 bedroom places in Edinburgh for that, and a 2 bedroom flat for a lot less: all depends on the area. Near impossible though to find a 5 bedroom house for less than 200k. Well, there is one in north Livingston, next to the M8.....not sure it's worth the trade though.
Posted 13 years ago # -
There's a reason that accommodation in the centre of town (or Edinburgh in general) is more expensive than more peripheral locations. I'm pretty sure that it's not due to a lack of demand or desirability and is more like the opposite.
I'm in a rather small flat and was thinking about my older, larger (shared) flat this morning. The overall effect of all that extra space was that my former flatmate just filled it with junk. I came to the conclusion that I'm not sure what I'd do with much more space. (Probably something stupid like fill it with more bikes!)
Perhaps for some people "space" isn't the only factor taken into account when doing their personal quality of life calculation.
Posted 13 years ago # -
@Crowriver, dunno about 5 bedroom, but four bedroom detached are available for half that price in the Falkirk area.
If "everyone" attempted to live in Edinburgh, or indeed commute from outside, it would create a fresh set of problems. All sorts of people are subject to different pressures and have different requirements/budgets etc.
Casting them as "right" or "wrong" is at best foolish unless you are able to consider *all* of the reasons for their decision.
We all have different requirements and constraints for cost/space/amenities/transport/peace and quiet/etc etc
Posted 13 years ago # -
"Sorry Min, when I lived in East Anglia 'I choose to spend 5 hours stuck in a car every week so that I can "improve my quality of Home life . Incidentally I spend more time on the train than I did commuting in the car, but I can spend the time reading."
It looks like you have extrapolated my statement about people who choose to live out of town so that they can drive in to mean everyone who lives outside of town and uses any other form of transport either partially or wholly to get in. I meant only people who specifically choose to live somewhere very far away with no public transport links so that they can drive in and not people who use any other combination of transport which may or may not include driving to the train or bus station or park and ride.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"Perhaps for some people "space" isn't the only factor taken into account when doing their personal quality of life calculation."
I remember visiting a bike enthusiast in New York some years ago. Walked into his flat (not a 'loft') and seeing lots of bikes on the floor and hanging up.
Felt a bit uncomfortable when I realised that it seemed to be the only room and he lived there with his wife!
Today the news is full of (lack of) 'affordable' housing - England but there are parallels here.
Cost/location are factors and "right to buy" has dramatically changed the public/private/owner occupier ratios.
The population is rising, more people want/can afford to live on their own, and there are more constraints on where new houses can be built. It remains to be seen how changes in Planning laws and emphasis on "localisation" (England) will change all this.
There is also the whole area of expectation/aspiration.
It's not that long since many families with more than 2.4 kids lived in a couple of rooms.
Personally I have never wanted to live in a semi with a bit of front and back garden, but plenty of people want to (and do).
There will NEVER be enough houses/flats to house everyone in style to which they might like to be accustomed.
This thread is more about the consequences of people living and working where they do. Posts above demonstrate that it's 'complicated'.
There is little doubt that building more/wider/better/faster roads and the 'real' cost of motoring v public transport have made it possible for more people to decide to have longer distance/ time commutes.
I once had a job that meant I worked in Glasgow 2 or 3 days a week. But I was VERY fortunate because I was based in Edinburgh so the journey time and cost was covered by the employer.
Much as I like trains, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to do it every day.
Neither would I want to drive half an hour or more in 'rush' hour conditions.
But then I'm not 'normal' I judge distances by how far it will take to cycle!
I suspect there are others on here with a similar view.
Quite a few people on here have/use cars but I suspect 'we' have looked at and considered more options than 'most people' who 'have to' use their cars all the time!
Posted 13 years ago #
Reply »
You must log in to post.
posts
