Tomorrow Meadows/Morningside councillor Alison Johnstone is set to ask supplementary questions to follow up on the answers she has received to recent questions.
http://cyclingedinburgh.info/2010/03/10/cycle-training-any-chance-of-progress
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Cycle Training - any chance of progress?
(45 posts)-
Posted 14 years ago #
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Not until we get more adults cycling...
Posted 14 years ago # -
It’s not about kids or adult training. Need BOTH.
IN school SHOULD be easy to organise. Need COMMITMENT – which CEC doesn’t demonstrate.
Kids often give up cycling in teenage years, but those who see it as ‘normal’ are more likely to return.
They need encouragement by ’society’, parents AND schools.
Posted 14 years ago # -
So how do we change ’society’ to make cycling ‘normal’?
OK, so maybe I am stirring things up a bit here, we both agree on where we want to get, it is just how to get there. I see adults as the key, the children will follow. That is not say that training in school is not important, it is, but by its self it will not achieve the desired result.
Posted 14 years ago # -
"I see adults as the key, the children will follow."
Perhaps, but not as much as if kids had been enthused about bikes and pestered parents to take them out.
CT is no panacea, but it's important that Councils (this one in particular) regard walking and cycling as part of 'education' and as more important than - for instance - golf. Not sure if Jack McConnell's grand plan for all kids to get golf lessons ever happened. BUT Edinburgh kids DO get golf - run by the same Active Schools Co-ordinators who have CT as part of (very small part) their jobs.
Some schools do this sort of thing. Fun for all ages.
Posted 14 years ago # -
Depends on whether you are looking at cycling as a leisure activity or a practical means of transport in the urban environment? OK so ideally we really want it to be both, but thinking of the target of 15% of all journeys by bike by 2020, this will require far more active adult engagement.
Posted 14 years ago # -
One of the only ways we'll get more adults cycling every day is if there is a network of cycle paths that are physically separate from other traffic. Most people i talk to about cycling in the city say they are too afraid of traffic to get on their bikes. I keep a bike in Amsterdam and cycling there is a pleasure no hills and the cycle paths are great. The streets are narrow but still they accomodate trams bikes and cars. Why can't we do it over here? Personally I don't mind cycling in traffic I spent 4 years as a courier many moons ago and find it quite exhilarating but Joe Public don't want to share a lane with busses cars and trucks and I don't blame them. The Cycle paths in Edinburgh are an embarassment as many people on here have already pointed out a waste of red paint...........of course it'll never happen.
Posted 14 years ago # -
@recombodna "The streets are narrow but still they accomodate trams bikes and cars. Why can't we do it over here?"
Too many cars?
Posted 14 years ago # -
There were too many cars in Amsterdam not that long ago but they managed to sort it out. It costs 6 euros an hour to park your car and the parking regs last til after midnight. They have a very well organized public transport system and park and ride schemes. Holland is a small country and believe it or not there are just as many cars as here if not more.
Posted 14 years ago # -
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Posted 14 years ago # -
Sadly CEC keep bottling the parking issue, if they were to address the parking issue we could start to address the congestion issue, but that would require real political leadership and that is something that is sadly lacking.
Posted 14 years ago # -
The answer imho is not in any one place, travelling along the canal towpath/old railway in the mornings I see loads more cyclists of all types than I do on the road, qed flat-ish seperated routes are preffered, but I also see loads along Slateford where the traffic can be aggressive to put it mildly...
I think we need, in no particular order;
-As many seperated routes as possible,
-More people cycling who don't look like "cyclists"(eg, normal clothes and not a lycra clad person who by their very choice of clothes is "a cyclist", there is plenty room for lycra (before anyone gets upset!) but I want to see cycling as everyday as well)
-Enforcement by the authorities of the advanced stop lines etc AND, just as important, enforcement of the penalties against people on bikes who jump lights etc.
-Greater provision for bikes on public transport AND advertising of the fact, most people I speak to are unaware bikes can travel free on the local trains for instance, I regularly see all the bike racks on the train in the morning full up, so we either need *secure* parking at either end in quantity or a decent amount of bike carriage on the train...
-Incentives to use bikes, at the moment Edin council seem to only use the stick to beat motorists with, they need to use carrots as well (no, not to beat them with, silly!). For instance off the top of my head, reduce the price of a ticket from the park and ride(s), in the big picture scrap VED and put all the tax on fuel so if you only drive a little you pay less, offer free bike tuition for adults, do some sort of scheme with the childcare allowances for kiddie seats etc etc etcCycling is slowly getting more "normal" for adults, but it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing and although I feel we are slowly approaching a bit of a tipping point we're not quite there yet :-/
Certainly teaching children is an excellent thing, and can only improve safety, but we need the big kids cycling and only when the children see that will they themselves follow suit and cycle themselves when they have cars as an option.(wanders off for a lie down, apologies for the stream of conciousness drivel!!)
Posted 14 years ago # -
Sage words indeed!! They Hammer you in Amsterdam for Red light jumping/No lights etc.But you cann park and ride for 6euros per day and that includes your public transport into the city which takes all of 5 mins.
Posted 14 years ago # -
chdotIt’s not about kids or adult training. Need BOTH.
I agree to a degree. One way to make cycling relevant is to show it as a shortcut to getting to places that they want to visit - fast. Our 'Cycle the City' cycle clubs were popular - one reason being that they showed how to put training into practise and useful cycle routes.
Looking for links to show clubs in action.
Posted 14 years ago # -
Many good points made... Car ownership in Amsterdam is I think higher than in Edinburgh... though new Scottish car sales were at a record due to scrappage. This 'brilliant' initiative could have a whole thread on it's own...
Just shows you what you can do if you throw enough money at something...
Posted 14 years ago # -
I agree with Smudge and LaidBack. Chdot I wasn't say that we don't need to teach kids, we do, but it isn't going to be enough by it self, we have to teach the adults as well. One of the things I have found is that when you given an adult cycle training it changes the way they drive as well.
What we really want is a situation where people feel they have a choice in the way they travel. Currently driving is heavily incentivised and the level of car traffic is a very real barrier to active travel (that is a trendy way of saying walking and cycling). We need to find ways of redressing the balance in favour of active travel.
Posted 14 years ago # -
In 20 years the kids of today will be the parents of tomorrow. Even if they don't take up cycling as a result, investment in rigorous cycle training for all kids would go a long way to normalise it for future generations (it will also, obviously, benefit all the ones who *do* cycle).
Because of the way the catchment system works, journeys from home to school are almost guaranteed to be cyclable and so targeting schools to incentivise active travel is very very winnable.
Posted 14 years ago # -
All well and good but ultimately wasted if they instantly give it up as soon as they hit seventeen and buy a car. Unless you invest in training for adults as well it just reinforces the stereotype that cycling is for kids.
Posted 14 years ago # -
"In 20 years the kids of today will be the parents of tomorrow."
EXACTLY!
Of course it's a 20 year process that should have been in place for the last 20 years.
With the new Curriculum for Excellence and the funding of Active School Co-ordinator posts it should be simple.
With all the 'concern' about exercise in school, 'active travel', 'safe routes to school', obesity etc. etc. it should just be a byproduct of all the joined-up-thinking that politicians keep talking about.
As for training adults, that's partially a legacy of lack of universal training at primary school.
I think some sort of bicycle/awareness training should be part of the driving test - but that's a whole other area...
Posted 14 years ago # -
"All well and good but ultimately wasted if they instantly give it up as soon as they hit seventeen and buy a car."
Not really that many 17 year olds who can afford to buy/run a car. Suspect there will be more spending their money on expensive mountain bikes.
That's one thing that has changed in the last 20 years 'coolness' of riding a bike due to MTBing.
How much that translates into transport/commuting is another matter. Certainly deals with the exercise/obesity issues - and certainly doesn't stop at 17.
Posted 14 years ago # -
"Not really that many 17 year olds who can afford to buy/run a car."
No but previous experience of being a seventeen year old showed me that there are probably enough around to give their friends a lift or enough parents who will lend their kids the car. The rest are just waiting until they can afford a car. I think it is fair to say that pretty much the only kid at my school who kept cycling was me. The ones who could afford a car at 17 drove them to school. I don't see any difference in the "youth of today" at all. Apart from a slight trend towards cycle commuting in the last few years, the majority are still just waiting until they can get a car.
Posted 14 years ago # -
"the majority are still just waiting until they can get a car."
I suspect that is probably mostly true. At 17 I was allowed to use my parents car sometimes. At that time we lived 5 miles away from main town with busy roads and bad bus service.
My children went past 17 without cars, don't have driving licences and still cycle (in London).
Mixture of parental influence and upringing in central Edinburgh, where walking was/is a serious option for 'social travel'. A lot of teenagers give up cycling (particularly girls) because one or more of their close friends doesn't cycle, so they walk or get the bus together.
It's much more difficult to group gossip by bike.
You know how much motorists love side by side cyclists.
Key thing is for the non-cycling period to become a gap rather than permanent.
If children are confident/competent at late primary/early secondary age, 'returning' to cycling is simpler. There may also be a reduction in teen/student pavement cycling...
Posted 14 years ago # -
The thing about adult cycle training (which I have no inherent problem with) is that there are serious obstacles to implementing it.
People only take driving lessons because it's a legal prerequisite of getting a car (and many don't even bother then). I simply can't imagine getting anybody in the office to adult cycling lessons, free or otherwise.
I agree that cycle lessons at school are hardly a silver bullet. But kids are a captive audience and funding can come through central channels. It's unrealistic to hope that many (if any) will turn their back on society's obsession with cars, but no other method offers this either.
Posted 14 years ago # -
I am not against cycle training for children, of the 1,113 P6/P7 pupils received cycle training in 2008-9, I trained about 80. However, there are a lot of adults out there who would like to get back into cycling, as cycling is becoming fashionable, but they are afraid of the traffic, (which is on reason why they stop their children from going out and cycling on their own) and lack confidence to get started. There are also young adults, who have only ridden on off road paths and MTBing who want to start commuting who don't know the rules of the road, who take their cues from the behaviour of other they see around them, jumping red lights, riding on the pavements, etc... These group need training. Giving cycle training to adults also has the added benefit of changing their attitudes to cyclist when driving, even those who cycle already.
Concentrating on providing training for P6/P7 pupils may (or may not) solve the problem in 20 years time, but it isn't enough to hit the target of 15% of all journeys by bike by 2020.
As for the Active Schools Co-ordinators, I happen to know that most (if not all) of the Midlothian team are qualified cycle trainers, but they don't have the resources to go round every school giving training.
Posted 14 years ago # -
"As for the Active Schools Co-ordinators, I happen to know that most (if not all) of the Midlothian team are qualified cycle trainers, but they don't have the resources to go round every school giving training."
Edinburgh too, but the point about "resources" is how they are allocated.
IF CT was higher up the list of ASCs' responsibilities this significant amount of 'resource' (staff time) would be available to train trainers and children.
Posted 14 years ago # -
Aye indeed. There is not a captive audience of adults to give cycle training to but there are certainly a load who claim that they drive because there are too many cars. Getting them into cycling would have a quicker and longer term benefit IMO than teaching only kids and hoping that a few keep cycling when they are older.
Otherwise:
Cycle lessons are for kids. Bikes are for kids
Driving lessons are for grown-ups. Cars are for grown-ups.Posted 14 years ago # -
"Cycle lessons are for kids. Bikes are for kids
Driving lessons are for grown-ups. Cars are for grown-ups."
Obviously there are people who think like that. It doesn't help that L&B Police gave up Cycle Training to concentrate on 'young driver training'.
As I've said, doing CT isn't going to (by itself) transform the world. 20-30 years ago it would be reasonable to say 'bikes are for kids'. Raleigh (then the UK's largest bike manufacturer - not just importer) hardly made adult bikes beyond the traditional 3 speeds and 10 speed "racers".
Since then 'Mountain Bikes' have changed many things. Originally they were a (n adult) plaything for going down hill. Then Californian innovation and Japanese manufacturing made much better gears and brakes widely available.
This led to a sport/leisure boom and in turn bikes (MTB and 'hybrid') that were more comfortable for most people (straight bars), with reliable (indexed), hill climbing (low) gears + brakes that worked even when it rained.
So there is less of a view that bikes are just for kids.
'CT is for kids' may lead some people to be too embarrassed to admit they want to do it.
My view is that CT should a normal part of school along with reading, writing, music, swimming etc. etc. - none of which you would really expect to rely on slightly trained volunteers to deliver.
The cost benefits of encouraging kids to cycle at an age when they are keen to be encouraged to cycle are massive. Sadly politicians and Government officials pay lip service to this and pass the buck. 'Cycling is transport' (not Education or Health), 'how kids get to school is the parents' responsibility', 'we can't do CT because we can't get volunteers'.
Posted 14 years ago # -
What ever happened to the concept of joined up thinking in policy making? ;-)
Posted 14 years ago # -
So, just for instance, run adult cycle training at workplaces (it's amazing what people will do if you offer them an hour away from the desk ;-)) or even offer sessions in pub car parks on a weekend for the hour before opening time.. grown ups get an excuse to go to the pub, pub gets customers, authorities get to look pro-active and more people get exposed to bikes...
The only thing stopping imaginative and effective promotion of cycling (and moped/motorcycling for that matter) is Government apathy combined with a nagging worry that if they cure the jams and get loads of people out of their cars they (the govt) may lose some of those lovely cash cows, the motorists... :-<
Posted 14 years ago # -
"What ever happened to the concept of joined up thinking in policy making? ;-) "
Always was and probably always will be just that... a concept ;-)
Posted 14 years ago #
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