CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Cycling and women

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    Some slightly disturbing anecdotes have been posted on another thread about attitudes to women on bikes (perhaps even a sub-set of 'older' women who are assumed to be 'slow').

    Previously a lot a discussion of 'women' issues have been more about women not cycling 'because it's too dangerous' or 'blame' for things like being killed by HGVs.

    In general I am wary of 'women only' things (don't like men only ones either!) but maybe there needs to be more talk about this - which may or may not be about male cyclists/drivers (and women in 4WDs...)

    By chance there is a piece in the Guardian today - How Cambridge is getting women on their bikes

    "Yet, despite of all these benefits, research last autumn revealed that 79% of women in the UK never cycle. The study led to a petition calling for safer cycling routes, which was subsequently signed by 9,000 women and presented to the minister for transport, Scottish parliament and Welsh assembly in January. British Cycling, concerned that there are now three times as many men as women cycling in the UK, is also conducting a survey to find out what's putting women off."

    Posted 14 years ago #

  2. SRD
    Moderator

    The question is, do drivers treat women cyclists differently (worse). I too had heard about the research which said that drivers swing out further around women cyclists. But this is only one part of the ride -- the overtaking. From Min's post and my own experience, I don't think the 'wider overtaking' is inconsistent with 'more aggressive' driving.

    My proposition would be that while they may overtake wider, they are also more likely to rush to over-take, accelerate past even when red lights, ambulances etc are approaching, and swing in front, so as to cut off access to cycle-lane. i.e. they assume that female commuters are 'SLOW' and obstructions, and this justifies pushing past them, blocking them etc. This, I have argued, is also true of some male cyclists.

    But I have no proof of this, as I only have the experience of being a female cyclist, encountering aggressive drivers. And, I would note, that I am sure that some drivers sympathize with me on my bike with passenger, and let us turn etc.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    Random Google

    Posted 14 years ago #

  4. Min
    Member

    SRD, you could be right with perceptions of slowness. I am in fact faster on the folder than on my MTB but possibly due to the upright riding position I may look potentially slow and should therefore get the **** out of the way. I think I get more very close passes on the folder although it is possible that drivers who do give space, give more space.

    I have not noticed any rude cycling being directed at me personally though I think men are more likely to push past anyone they see at traffic lights. It doesn't really bother me unless, as you say, they actually put me in any danger.

    You will appreciate my incident last night when a guy pushed past me at traffic lights. When we set off in fact I was going at the same speed and he noticed me still there and kept glancing to the left (where I was) as he travelled in the middle lane. I actually reached the next set of lights before him since the left lane was clear of traffic. He pushed past me again, glanced round again to see me still there and... you should have seen his wee legs going! I don't think I have ever seen anyone pedal so fast in my life. I was in stitches! Simple pleasures. :-)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  5. chdot
    Admin

    "you should have seen his wee legs going! I don't think I have ever seen anyone pedal so fast in my life."

    Singlespeeder or just gear incompetent?

    "Simple pleasures"

    Yeah - I love beating 'roadies' (usually fakeroadies) off the line - too high geared to get the initial acceleration.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  6. SRD
    Moderator

    My problem is that I usually beat everyone out of the intersection, but I then either lose speed or concentration on the uphill stretches, and get over-taken.

    Had been thinking about asking for advice in keeping up speed, not on big hills, which I think I handle okay, but long slightly uphill stretches, like Causewayside to Marchmont Road. Any ideas?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    "Had been thinking about asking for advice"

    What's the 'issue'?

    You don't like being passed/beaten? (I assume not.)

    So either be more leisurely when the lights change or get fitter or don't care - or am I missing something?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  8. Kirst
    Member

    My experience is that roughly 85% of drivers are bike-neutral, 5% are actively considerate and helpful, and 10% want me dead. I don't know if any of their behaviour is linked to the fact I'm female, but experience in other areas of life leads me to believe that there are some older males who will go out of their way to be protective of me because I'm female.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  9. chdot
    Admin

    "10% want me dead"

    age/gender profile?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  10. Kim
    Member

    @ Kirst I don't think that changes with the gender of the cyclist, I get the feeling all cyclist are treated like that.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  11. Kirst
    Member

    The 10% are mostly male and often in vans.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    "often in vans"

    colour profile?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  13. Kim
    Member

    Kirst, I wasn't referring to the gender of the drivers, my observation is the behaviour you observe is experienced by cyclist of either gender. To these drivers they are just cyclist and cyclist are not people.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  14. SRD
    Moderator

    "You don't like being passed/beaten? (I assume not.)

    So either be more leisurely when the lights change or get fitter or don't care - or am I missing something?"

    Even if there's not someone in front/behind me, I feel like I am not pacing myself well. I certainly never find the right gear for that sort of terrain. I just find it very hard going, and have a sense that a cycle coach or someone would have a recommendation for better technique. But maybe not. Remember of course that I am doing all this with an extra 35lbs or so on back.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  15. chdot
    Admin

    "I certainly never find the right gear for that sort of terrain."

    Ah.

    In these day of multiple gears, it should be fairly easy to change to a gear that allows you to pedal at your optimum speed.

    The reality is that it's a hill and you're shifting a lot of weight up it. SO basic physics...

    Medium term solution - get child ready for cycle trailer (conditional on willing to contribute high energy pedalling input).

    Short term consideration - make sure rear tyre is really hard. May be worth considering different tyre.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  16. PS
    Member

    Yeah, tyre pressure is a key consideration. Amazing how much friction is reduced with a hard tyre.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  17. SRD
    Moderator

    @ Kim: " I don't think that changes with the gender of the cyclist, I get the feeling all cyclist are treated like that." But women cyclists may be seen as 'weak' or 'vulnerable' and we all know that bullies prefer not to pick on people their own size....

    @ PS Luckily passenger (soon to be co-pedaler) also thinks pumping up tyres is a lot of fun! keeps her distracted for ages.....

    Posted 14 years ago #

  18. Smudge
    Member

    "My experience is that roughly 85% of drivers are bike-neutral, 5% are actively considerate and helpful, and 10% want me dead."

    I seem to attract the same sort of percentages (middle aged bloke, slightly built and short but no mistaking me for a lady when I'm cycling without a hat, the male pattern baldness gives it away lol)

    Just last weekend I went and bought an airzound in frustration at being badly left hooked at a local roundabout. (if I hadn't had a "feeling" he was about to do something stupid and started braking before his pass/turn I'd have hit him!) mind you, he didn't like being shouted at and embarrased :-))

    Posted 14 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    "thinks pumping up tyres is a lot of fun"

    kids do - but maybe that's the problem - can she do it enough??

    Posted 14 years ago #

  20. Kim
    Member

    @ SRD to a minority drivers (who really shouldn't be on the road) ALL cyclists may be seen as 'weak' or 'vulnerable' and we all know that bullies prefer not to pick on people their own size....

    It has something to do with being in a large metal cage and their feeling safe.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  21. Dave
    Member

    Privately I suspect there is a strong correlation between how fast you ride, and how much hassle you get. Since I started commuting a few years ago, I have become increasingly fast and get increasingly less hassle (virtually no hassle now). The only other obvious thing I can think of, is that with more experience I ride more (assertively/aggressively?) than before, but I would only expect that to reduce inattentive driving, not the malicious sort.

    Any other ideas?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  22. LaidBack
    Member

    "Privately I suspect there is a strong correlation between how fast you ride,"

    I think that may be true (to a point).. If you cycle slowly then more cars wish to overtake you, then you overtake them as they wait at lights. So bike/car interaction is greater than car/car interaction - hence the fact drivers moan about what cyclists do to get by them etc.

    If you cycle in the flow of traffic most stay behind. Most drivers are content to treat heavy traffic as a kind of 'train' where they just follow the vehicle in front. This is the democracy of car ownership in action! This also allows them to tailgate through lights etc. Bikes just don't follow this pattern as they are either too slow on open roads or too fast when you are stuck in a queue of cars. So as cyclists we can't win!

    You do notice though that when you cycle in (say) Amsterdam nobody cycles at the sorts of speeds you'll see on Queen St. I think we develop turns of speed for self preservation. This in turn means that most people conclude that cycling is too much effort. So we can't win - Part 2!

    The parked car issue is also a factor here and the glance over the shoulder does allow you to join the stream - as long as you're above 12mph. Below that the 'poor' white van driver / motorist will have to brake and change gear. People of the Clarkson persuasion would rather not bother doing this - hence conflict. Even though as the vehicle in front you have right of way (providing your road postion is clear).

    Sorry - minor manifesto there... what was the question...?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  23. Min
    Member

    Yes, the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the "problem" here is speed or assumption of lack of speed. Which means that the perception of non-cyclists that they need to be super fit and wear lycra is.....correct. And the perception of many people, women in particular, that they should not cycle as it is dangerous is....correct. If you are not already Victoria Pendleton then you can forget it. Okay, a bit of an exaggeration but I will certainly be going for the "unfriendly" bicycle from now on. Even if it is actually slower, the fact that I look "unfriendly" is keeping me much safer. I want to enjoy my cycling and not be constantly scared of being mown down.

    And just as the cup holder I ordered for my folder has arrived from Ebay. :-(

    Posted 14 years ago #

  24. Smudge
    Member

    Fit the cup holder, and put an air horn in it, and right at the speed you da... err jolly well feel like!
    That would be my plan anyway ;-)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    35. The research by Steer Davies Gleave also suggested that women had particular views about the types of bikes they wished to ride and clothing worn when cycling. Paul Zanzottera of Steer Davies Gleave told the Committee—

    “How people look, what they will wear, the different types of bikes that are available, and how women appear to one another and perceive their appearance have become important issues.”

    http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/ticc/reports-10/trr10-04.htm#_ftn13

    Posted 14 years ago #

  26. chdot
    Admin

    41. The Committee also heard that addressing women’s concerns about road safety was of particular importance, due to their frequent role as transport decision takers within households. Peter Zanzottera of Steer Davies Gleave told the Committee—

    “One piece of key research from England showed that 80 per cent of the transport decisions for children are taken by women—the mothers decide. We need to address the fear of road danger in a way that speaks to mothers rather than to fathers.”

    http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/ticc/reports-10/trr10-04.htm#_ftn13

    Posted 14 years ago #

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