I have commuted by bike for twenty years in Edinburgh, using cycle paths wherever possible. Over that period I have observed the effect that "Real Cyclists" (excuse me for stereotyping, but predominantly middle-class males, lycra-clad, helmeted & sunglass wearing) have on other path users. Hammering up behind dog walkers/school kids/slower cyclists, dinging their bells furiously, making no attempt to slow down. it is not overstating the issue to say that we bike users are loathed by many pedestrians (when was the last time you got a smile, "hello" or even eye contact from anybody on a cycle path?). Are we in large part responsible for this ourselves?
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Are "Real Cyclists" the enemy?
(169 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
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Welcome
Yes, this has been discussed in various forms here a few times.
General conclusion of 'us' is that of course it's other people...
There are undoubtedly people who ride bikes inconsiderately. Some don't realise some don't seem to care.
The 'battle' with pedestrians is usually in terms of the old favourite of people who fill the Evening News comment columns and radio phone-ins "cycling on pavements" which, apparently, 'all cyclists do'.
Most bike riders tend to be more concerned about drivers/motor vehicles and may be less careful towards others - particularly on shared paths.
Some people regard these as (fast) 'commuter routes' where pedestrians should keep out of the way and dogs should on (very tight) leads. This includes the canal which is too narrow for shared use and speed. The BWB 'speed limit' of 6mph is not realistic but won't help pedestrians perceptions as (virtually) all cyclists will be exceeding it.
It's all a balance. In recent years it hasn't helped that people have been cycling perfectly legally on paths such as those in The Meadows and Porty Prom. But pedestrians get angry because the council failed to remove "No Cycling" signs.
Cycling issues - especially relating to safety and infrastructure - and getting more prominence. There is a new mood of determination and optimism amongst campaigners and some progress - particularly in Edinburgh.
ALL people (especially on bikes, as there seems to be a disproportionate of attention paid to 'bad' cyclists) need to take care and be more considerate of others.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Cyclists don't like "aggressive driving" on the roads and I don't like seeing "aggressive cycling" on the paths. If you want to get out some frustration and undertake some aggressive cycling it's best to join a club (road / MTB, whatever tickles your fancy) and thrash out the miles in a furious manner at the weekends well out of harms way.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I dont like paths.
Too much glass, not normally dropped by cyclists, I imagine.
Shared use usually means a wee bit of conflict. I had someone on the canal shout that I wasnt observing the speed limit sign - didnt have the heart to tell her sign was meant for canalboats.......
Posted 12 years ago # -
"speed limit sign - didnt have the heart to tell her sign was meant for canalboats"
Well actually no!
It's 4mph for boats. The 6mph is for 'us'.
Not sure if it applies to joggers too...
Posted 12 years ago # -
Ah, in which case I am glad I kept quiet!
Dearie me, 6mph - reminds me why I stopped using it (well, that and the drunks, glass, dog poo etc)
Posted 12 years ago # -
"...when was the last time you got a smile, "hello" or even eye contact from anybody on a cycle path?..."
Well my route doesn't tend to employ cycle paths, but if you count the canal towpath or the WoL walkway then pretty much every time I use it. It's up to us to say thanks when people move over, or hello in passing, I make an effort to do it and cannot remember the last time the effort wasn't acknowledged.
I have to confess I've not seen the behaviour described (and would be pretty unimpressed if I did). I do however see the ninjas (and cars with often multiple lights out), and rlj's (both bicycle and car!) too often round Edinburgh. About time the Police had another crackdown on both :-/
All that said I don't believe "real cyclists" are the problem, (how many roadies have bells?!?). Just a minority of ignorant cyclists.
"Real" cyclists are the ones on here who nobody notices as they do nothing wrong to be noticed for...Posted 12 years ago # -
"
"Real" cyclists are the ones on here who nobody notices as they do nothing wrong to be noticed for..."
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Posted 12 years ago # -
Thanks for the opportunity to vent my spleen- it's interesting that people are receptive to different stimuli: I have never found "drunks, glass, dog poo" a problem. Commuting from Leith into town I'm heading into the flow of grim-faced speed merchants. Perhaps if I was riding in the same direction I wouldn't notice the lack of eye contact. As to the canal towpath, heading out of town from Lochrin basin during the morning commute was misery the couple of times I tried it. Pull over or get flattened!
Posted 12 years ago # -
I think a lot probably also depends on the time of day you are out. I'm these days on the towpath/wol when there are very few other people, or way out of town.
Heading up from Leith of course you are meeting people going downhill so they are going to be quick, and traffic (mis)behaviour in town is enough to make the cheeriest of us grim faced sometimes ;-)
Either way, 'tis good to vent the spleen now and again (may I reccomend the 28th April? ;-)) and it's good to see a less familiar poster on the board, welcome if you are new and apologies if you're not and I've missed your previous posts :-)Posted 12 years ago # -
Give the path from Restalrig Road to Easter Road a shot sometime: plenty of poo there. There was also a goodish pile of glass at the bottom of the steps up to Lochend Road at the weekend. The Pilton section of the NEPN is good for drunks.
Posted 12 years ago # -
There are people who are 'always' late for work.
This is particularly a problem for drivers' whose journey lengths can vary widely due to 'random' factors - e.g. the quantity of other vehicles on the road.
Cyclist don't really have this problem as their journey times are more predictable due to being less bothered by static traffic. (Though obviously strong winds can make a difference).
SO (perhaps) some people leave home later than they should.
Of course there are others whose cycle to work is their training/fitness regime, which is perhaps best not carried out on busy paths.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Plenty of good interaction on the WoL path last night. Horse rider grateful I waited for her to cross the wooden bridge at Juni Green. Dog walkers grateful that I gave their mutts a wide berth.
In general there is a slight element of surprise that cyclists can be polite. I do fear that a lot of the time the mountain bikers come bombing off the hills and down the path without bells causing bad vibes on the shared use path.
Will be tanking it through trinity today. Would have plenty of time but have to drop children at school at earliest poss time (8.30) then head to Vicky Quay
Posted 12 years ago # -
This is NOT the argument (sorry, reasoned debate) that I wanted! I only refer to commuting: by donning funny clothes, plastic hats, reflective shades & treating the morning commute as a macho display of sporting prowess, many bicycle users ghettoise(?) themselves and subsequently alienate other users of shared paths. The bike ceases to be a utility that anybody can use, commuting becomes a masonic lodge with initiation rites. Obviously individual experiences vary, but in my own situation I am the only bicycle commuter in a building of 40+ employees, in spite of having a very proactive employer, shower facilities, secure parking AND a location immediately adjacent to three of Edinburgh's major segregated bike routes. My colleagues' perception is that to commute by bike you have to be a cyclist, rather than somebody who uses a bike. Go to Ghent, Brugge, Hamburg, Amsterdam: you will see no lycra, clipless pedals, helmets. Just lots of people using bikes. Phew. Anyway, have a nice day & take care.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"I only refer to commuting: by donning funny clothes, plastic hats, reflective shades & treating the morning commute as a macho display of sporting prowess, many bicycle users ghettoise(?) themselves and subsequently alienate other users of shared paths. "
Oh its the cycle chic thing. It's not about how you ride its about what you wear while you are doing it.
I commute on a cycle path every day and get lots of smiles and hellos. It is by far the nicest part of my journey. Drivers seldom smile and never say hello.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I think you just need a better term for people who "don funny clothes, plastic hats, reflective shades & treat the morning commute as a macho display of sporting prowess" than 'real cyclists'. Everyone is Spartacus. "Funny" is quite a non-specific relative term. I see plenty of people who appear to treat the morning commute as a sporting event but who don't wear reflective shades. Every few days I see someone who wears an actual tracksuit but who rarely seems to be going over ten miles per hour.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Arne, I actually read your argument as being exactly the opposite of your second post, and was inclined to agree, but went to bed rather than post.
It is not what you wear, it is how you cycle. And people who cycle aggressively and are unfriendly to other users do give 'us' a bad name.
There is not necessarily a correlation between dress and style of riding, but I would agree that it is often there, especially on some of the paths that have been mentioned. I often smile at people I pass, and the ones who engage tend not to be the lycra louts, but the other mums & dads with childseats etc.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I wonder if they could put something in the water that made the drinker realise when he or she has done some confirmation bias or made the correlation/causation blunder.
Then again, maybe it'd be horrible, and those two are a safety blanket of comforting delusions that make life liveable.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@Arne (and there's a name that brings back cartoon memories from the seventies) I think what you are saying is already being said quite strongly by the Copenhagenize movement. But that's a big debate that's been had in other threads here before.
Posted 12 years ago # -
'Movement'. Hehe.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I think SRD hits the nail on the head - it's not what you wear, it's how you cycle.
I've seen quite a lot of 'normally clothed' cyclists acting like hooligans and giving the rest of us a bad name. And like Min, on the cyclepaths I get quite a lot of interaction with other cyclists and pedestrians. Though less so on the Trinity Path when I used to use it.
I don't wear lycra and hi-viz or a helmet; but equally I don't ride looking 'normal' I have a cycle cap, and a cycle 'cardigan' (for want of a better word), and cycling three-quarter troos, and it perfect for me as I use my commute as my gym. Though on cyclepaths it's toned right down, and certainly on cyclepaths which are busy with pedestrians. And I virtually never cycle on the canal (it's not on my route anyway, but any time I have to ride that direction I usually use the road).
Until last year I worked in a similar sized company, and there were no cycle facilities at all. None. I used to get changed in the toilets, or shut the door on my office if I was in early. Now I work in a large organisation with lockers and showers and secure underground parking and there are loads of cyclists, from Copenhagenized to me to lycra road bunnies. QED/confirmation bias, cycle facilities encourgae loads and loads of cyclists.
Hang around Arne, it's always nice to have reasoned debate, although on, "This is NOT the argument (sorry, reasoned debate) that I wanted!... We're kinda prone to 'thread drift' here. I'm surprised the thread hasn't already moved onto talking about cake.
Mmmmm.
Cake.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I would probably categorise myself as a "real cyclist" - getting on for 20 years as a cycle commuter in Edinburgh, Liverpool, Belfast, Falkirk/Polomnt, (very) occasional weekend road warrior and MTB'er. I would also consider myself a real parent, partner, worker. However, no-one ever seems to think my actions in these roles have any impact on how other parents, partners or workers behave.
Why is cycling unique? Do you really think the actions of individual cyclists have such influence on other people.
I think it is worth remembering that not all cyclists fall into your description of "real cyclist" - people wear all sorts of gear, so people considering cycling have all sorts of role-models.
Posted 12 years ago # -
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Posted 12 years ago # -
"Do you really think the actions of individual cyclists have such influence on other people"
Apparently - if you read the ENews comments!!!
(Or maybe I mean if you write the ENews comments...)
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
APPCG @allpartycyclingAt the @summerofcycling launch tomorrow in Parliament, Norman Baker will say we need to focus on the "joy of cycling".
"
https://twitter.com/allpartycycling/status/179501397132320768
Posted 12 years ago # -
People drive like idiots regardless or in spite of what "sort" of car they drive and how much or little they spent on it. Plenty of Beemer drivers are morons. Plenty aren't. Just like plenty of Citroen Xsara Picasso drivers are / aren't. I don't think it's any different from cycling. You are a considerate / inconsiderate cyclist in spite of what sort of bike you ride and what you wear when you're riding it.
I'm the same cyclist when I cycle to work in my "silly clothes" out of the cycling-clothes drawer as I am when I cycle to town in my equally "silly clothes" out of the normal-clothes drawer.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
I'm the same cyclist when I cycle to work in my "silly clothes" out of the cycling-clothes drawer as I am when I cycle to I'm the same cyclist when I cycle to work in my "silly clothes" out of the cycling-clothes drawer as I am when I cycle to town in my equally "silly clothes" out of the normal-clothes drawer.Well you are the same person. I think for some people clothes make a difference - think driving gloves.
There's also the style of bike.
Several people on here have said they ride differently depending on how upright (for instance) a bike makes them sit.
Not many 'boy racers' think they are Stirling Moss - other role models are available.
Not many Boardman owner are trying to live up to the name - though they might wish they were Cav or Wiggo.
Not that I'm saying that the 'problem' is roadies or wannabes or brand names.
Question is (and largely remains) whether hi viz (etc.) 'changes' people or makes them more visible to those wanting to find fault?
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'm still intrigued that these "real cyclists" have bells.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Question is (and largely remains) whether hi viz (etc.) 'changes' people or makes them more visible to those wanting to find fault?"
I have never been able to shake off the feeling, over my many years of cycling that it just doesn't do to be too visible. Anecdotes aplenty about hi-viz/bright rear lights and river passing space on this forum. Plenty of other people feel differently of course.
To the extent that although it is really nice to have daylight, I actually feel slightly less secure.
Posted 12 years ago #
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