"To the extent that although it is really nice to have daylight, I actually feel slightly less secure."
Why?
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Are "Real Cyclists" the enemy?
(169 posts)-
Posted 13 years ago #
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"I would also consider myself a real parent, partner, worker. However, no-one ever seems to think my actions in these roles have any impact on how other parents, partners or workers behave.
Why is cycling unique? Do you really think the actions of individual cyclists have such influence on other people."
Yep, strongly agree here. I think the least helpful thing of all is when cyclists try to whip themselves with the percieved (or real) misdeeds of other people linked by the tenuous thread of having the means and inclination to ride a bike.
Imagine a discussion about "people with kids who don't nod and smile when passing in the street, I think it reflects terribly on everyone who procreates" or "Why can't people with double glazing stop committing crimes, it reflects on all the other people with double glazing?"
In fact, it's even worse than that last, because the equivalent really is something like "until nobody with double glazing commits any crime, why should the police pay attention to antisocial/dangerous behaviour towards double glazing owners. Double glazers - get your house in order!"
Posted 13 years ago # -
"To the extent that although it is really nice to have daylight, I actually feel slightly less secure."
I've said before that my opinion is that collisions happen either because the driver didn't bother looking, or they saw me and pulled in/out anyway, so visibility conditions shouldn't make much difference to the way I feel.
That said, it always takes me a while to get used to the idea that people can see I'm only a cyclist again, rather than a big solid light. (I guess that helps with the latter).
Posted 13 years ago # -
They are just trying to be cool, and that always annoys/threatens those who are not trying to be cool. They have to front hard cos getting laughed at is not cool.
I always get hello's, but then I am chic.
Posted 13 years ago # -
""To the extent that although it is really nice to have daylight, I actually feel slightly less secure."
Why?"
I am not entirely sure. Maybe it is what Dave says, because I am no longer a light and some reflectors but Cyclist - probably responsible for all the ills of the world and certainly responsible for every other person who takes to a bike.
Plus I do think that some drivers take more care when it is dark, possibly enough to more than compensate for the ones who just just pull out if they can't see car headlights.
Posted 13 years ago # -
@Dave Perhaps if they were specifically using their double-glazing in the crimes they were committing and the double-glazing enabled the committal of crimes - it's not possible to cycle on the pavement without a cycle to cycle on the pavement on.
Posted 13 years ago # -
@Dave, it's because the misdeeds of other cyclists affect how others view all cyclists; I cant control how they view other cyclists, but I can tut when I see a RLJ because I know it will be used to justify some 'all cyclists RLJ rant'. And there are examples elsewhere; see http://www.salon.com/2012/03/12/when_a_flight_becomes_pre_schoolers_gone_wild/ for example
Posted 13 years ago # -
"@Dave, it's because the misdeeds of other cyclists affect how others view all cyclists; I cant control how they view other cyclists, but I can tut when I see a RLJ because I know it will be used to justify some 'all cyclists RLJ rant'."
But it doesn't justify it, that's the point. Think about it another way - if cyclists succeeded in achieving universal obedience to the laws of the land, they would be literally the first group of random assorted people (group has no entry controls) in the history of mankind to do so.
I think this is too high a bar to beat yourself up over.
Posted 13 years ago # -
My commute is along the canal, and it is often very busy. I feel a bit sorry for the pedestrians when there are so many cyclists (as it is a bit uncomfortable walking along, knowing there's bikes passing all the time).
I'd say most of the cyclists along there are careful. I actually try to go a bit further, and always ding my bell before overtaking and always say thank-you! (which does mean I say thankyou ~30 times on my way!).I'm not sure what to do about the occasionally nit on a bike. I've sometimes been passed without warning while slowing down because of people/dogs/other bikes. I shout 'oi!' or similar, but not sure what else to suggest. It's really frustrating because these few people are the ones giving cycling a bad name.
Anyway, in summary:
1. Be friendly to everyone.
2. Enjoy the ride! (slow down and watch the moor hens :P).Posted 13 years ago # -
Re: Tutting at RLJ. I never RLJ. But...
I feel there are three categories of RLJing:1. Dangerous, to get there quicker.
2. Safe, to get there quicker.
3. To get safe, to avoid being in a dangerous situation.There are cases (e.g. where you're about to have to sit in the middle of the road indicating right between 40mph streams of traffic) where people are having to make the choice between obeying the law and being safe, and I don't think I would feel comfortable in criticising RLJing in those situations. But for the first two cases RLJ can be tutted at.
Posted 13 years ago # -
" I would also consider myself a real parent, partner, worker. However, no-one ever seems to think my actions in these roles have any impact on how other parents, partners or workers behave".
Hopefully whilst performing those roles you're not putting the wind up passers-by or domestic animals by whistling by at 25mph in a fluorescent skinsuit.
By the comments posted I can see I am in a very small, perhaps jaundiced, minority. One can only rely on one's own experience though, and talking to pedestrian regulars in and around Leith, Trinity, Drylaw etc, and being the recipient of the odd shouted comment, cyclists are not widely liked. Maybe it is all the Evening News' fault.
Posted 13 years ago # -
The worst thing about lycra louts is that's how they'll drive, and their cars will be fugly pointlessly fast taste-vacuums too.
@Dave, regarding bar height. That is a rather good point, which of course means I'll pretend to have thought of it myself in future conversations elsewhere...
Posted 13 years ago # -
I have never ever seen anyone wearing a fluorescent skinsuit on a bike, not even on the day when some sort of triathlon (or possibly duathlon) competition was being held in Holyrood Park and various people in team kit on extremely pricey-looking bikes were heading in from as far Leithwards as Lindsay Road and Salamander Street. That was sometime last year, so perhaps fashions/colours have changed since then.
I very rarely see roadie-geared people on the off-road paths. Most of the people I witness not slowing down or not dinging to pass pedestrians, their mobile biological hazard implementation entities or slower cyclists are not wearing cycling-specific clothing. A fair few of them even have their heels on the pedals.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I ride between town and Leith every day as part of my commute. Obviously, I'm only there twice a day between 7:45-8:30am, 5-6pm - but I can't imagine there are many people cracking on over 20mph, because of my gear selection (56", which at a hefty 100rpm is still under 17mph). I can obviously go faster, but nobody has overtaken me since I started this route.
That said, I'm comfortable with a speed of 20mph on a path which is as wide as the Roseburn and Leith paths are - speaking as a pedestrian. It's the same speed we tolerate motorised vehicles driving around in residential areas, car parks etc and I think it's pretty unrealistic to expect people to go slower than that when there's room for 4-6 to pass abreast.
Needless to say that's not always an appropriate speed or a target speed (just like 70mph isn't always appropriate on the motorway, 20mph isn't always appropriate in a residential area, blah blah) but it's a fact of life that when you take a cross-section of society and put them in such a position, some will not be fussed about others and some will. It's a fantasy to imagine that a single purchase of an item (bike) will transform everyone's personality :)
Posted 13 years ago # -
arne - I appreciate that some cyclists can be rude, aggressive etc. That isn't because they are cyclists or because of what they wear, that's just the sort of people they are.
I can certanly annoy Ms M at speeds of less than 25mph - the problem is normally that I'm not doing anything at all.
Why don't you join us for one of our coffee meet ups - hopefully it'll restore your faith in cyclists.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"cyclists are not widely liked"
Not doubting your experience or conclusions.
I think it would also be easy to find people who don't like dogs/owners - not least among cyclists and people with small children.
I was recently at Five Ways and saw a women throw a stick for her dog across the junction from a position where she couldn't possible have seen the two young children cycling along (fortunately slowly).
Some people don't think/consider others.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"By the comments posted I can see I am in a very small, perhaps jaundiced, minority"
I don't think that's the case - no-one here is condoning people who do all of the things you mention, and we all know it happens, it's more that it's not necessarily limited to people who dress a certain way...
Posted 13 years ago # -
Partly I think it's just the hyperbole - the idea of middle-aged men in lycra, with their road bikes, aero helmets, fluorescent skin suits, dinging their bells while time trialling along the disused railway lines of Edinburgh. It's like Mikael has rolled all his cycling hate figures into one mythical many-helmeted hydra. It's just not an image I can recognise, let alone sympathise with.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Is that a Colnago Hyperbole? "middle-aged men in lycra, with their road bikes, aero helmets, fluorescent skin suits, dinging their bells" spot on description...& I think I might have seen that Hydra bloke crossing Bruntsfield Links. Probably heading for EBC (it seems to attract them).
Posted 13 years ago # -
Of course this also brings back the whole bell debate. I don't have one, mainly because I hate it when people ding bells (or if driving, beep horns) at me.
When I took the Paper Bicycle on the north Edinburgh paths, even though it had a lovely bell, I didn't like to ding it except when there *wasn't* anyone about!
Yet, I do know some people are very keen on bell dinging (perhaps so long as they aren't actually being dinged at!)
This morning on the way to work there was a woman walking away from me on the far left, and a child perhaps a car length or so behind her on the right. I slowed down to "foot speed" to account for either the kid swerving left or her stepping right, but I got the distinct impression that she was vexed as I passed. I'm sure if I ring-a-ding-dinged my way from one end to the other that wouldn't be popular either though.
As there seems to be no way to win, I don't try. I have a voice and it doesn't involve moving my hands off the controls ;-)
Posted 13 years ago # -
Posted 13 years ago #
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arne - yes, I call that the Pencaitland Railway Two-step:
the panicked jump to the side that people do when they finally hear your bell ringing as you approach them slowly, from behind, on a shared path.Posted 13 years ago # -
Tom- thanks for the reply, nothing personal but I accidentally deleted my previous post!
Posted 13 years ago # -
I think we have established that we need:
1. Roads for cars where nothing without an engine may venture.
2. Tracks for cyclists where only vehicles with wheels, but without engines may venture.
3. Paths for pedestrians, where only humans without vehicles (with or without engines),and not dogs may venture.
4. Sewers for Dog walkers, they don't deserve paths.This could get quite expensive?
Posted 13 years ago # -
Being serious for a minute though, I would support a 15mph limit on all shared use paths.
I am also of the opinion (and I am one of the middle aged, Lycra skinsuit (although not florescent) ninja types) that folks fly along these paths far too quickly. I personally try not to go above 12-13mph when on a shared use path.Posted 13 years ago # -
Depends on the path and the traffic IMO - walking speed may be too fast, so I sometimes put my foot down altogether and just stop! (on something like the canal it forces truculent peds to just deal with you, since at the end of the day, you're stationary)
On the other hand, when there's nobody about, how much threat do people going at any speed cause (providing they aren't making bad assumptions about junctions with other paths!).
What makes me nervous generally about "speeding cyclists annoy pedestrians" is that the speed required not to annoy anyone is arbitrarily low - certainly under 10mph in my opinion.
In that respect, allowing cyclists onto the paths is fundamentally about annoying peds and I almost have more sympathy with the argument that they should be banned (don't agree, but I think it's more consistent).
Posted 13 years ago # -
Being serious for a minute though, I would support a 15mph limit on all shared use paths.
I personally try not to go above 12-13mph when on a shared use path.
How do you enforce that? I have no idea how fast I'm going on a shared-use, or any other, path. If it's empty, then I may be going pretty fast. If it's busy, I may be virtually at a walking pace. But I don't know what either is in mph.
Posted 13 years ago # -
And of course, many such as my good self don't have a speedo fitted. Presumably this would have to become an offence if widespread legislation on speed was to come into effect (even if just a change to the point of sale laws?)
Posted 13 years ago # -
Enforcement is an issue, you certainly can't automate it in any way. You might hope that if there is a posted speed limit, folk might try to stay within that, or at least take some care to go at a reasonable speed.
However if my experience of the Forth Road Bridge is anything to go by, which does have a posted limit of 15mph, no-one pays any attention to it.
We all complain about cars breaking speed limits etc etc, but the simple truth is, human nature is to get there as quickly as possible, no matter whether on bike or in car.
And as controversial as it may sound, we as cyclists are exactly the same as motorists in that we are only prepared to adhere to the rules which we don't find silly. That limit on the bridge is silly, lets not bother!
I'm not trying to compare cars with bikes in term of potential danger, but rather breaking a rule is breaking a rule whether in a car, or on a bike, and we ALL do it.
Posted 13 years ago #
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