CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Are "Real Cyclists" the enemy?

(169 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by arne_saknussen
  • Latest reply from ruggtomcat

  1. wingpig
    Member

    Zoë Williams did a piece once mentioning that she sometimes cycled in fishnets in order to ensure that people saw her.

    Some years ago I performed an experiment to determine why some cyclists wear brightly-coloured garments with reflective trim. I prepared two cyclists, one wearing day-glo orange binman trousers and a fluoro yellow tabard with Scotchlite strips. The other (controlled for height, weight and so on) was dressed in a three-piece Harris tweed suit with matching cap. They were photographed in a range of situations and lighting conditions, using both a normal camera and lens and a second unit identical to the first except for the addition of a filter created by sandwiching between two glass plates a thin layer of the fluid obtained by draining the vitreous humour from the eyeballs of several Hackney carriage drivers licensed to operate in the Edinburgh area. We found that both cyclists were clearly visible in photographs from the first camera but that with the second (filtered) camera the tweed-clad cyclist was scarcely visible at all, appeared as a light herringbone-pattern distortion of the view in the background.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  2. Morningsider
    Member

    arne - sorry you feel we are being unfriendly. Perhaps it would help us understand your concerns if you say what you normally wear on your commute and where you think the line between normal and bizzare clothes lies.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  3. fimm
    Member

    That is interesting. I get a great deal of aggro when riding my folder (not a Brompton and I am not wearing a suit mind you) I vote for MAWIL every time.

    Min, that is interesting. At this point we may be down to the differences between the different roads that we ride our folders (and non-folders) on, and the level of traffic when we're doing it. I wonder if the folder is perceived as "slower" than the road bike?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  4. Baldcyclist
    Member

    That is where cycling is one of those 'special' cases where unfortunately there seems to be no win.

    Cyclists tell people that cycling is safe, and that more should do it, and it's fun etc etc.

    The same cyclists run campaigns outlining the dangers of cycling, and how we must have better this and that, and more of whatever.

    The truth is cycling (on a road) does have an element of danger involved, and no matter what we do, it will never go away - it can get markedly better though.

    It is also the case that what people wear whilst on their bike really has no relevance to their safety, and I would argue how they are perceived.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  5. arne_saknussen
    Member

    There seem to be several posts that do support the excellent EEN view of cyclists as "smug & self-righteous" sorry, that should be "Self-Congratulatory and Smug"

    Posted 13 years ago #
  6. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Arne, don't feel too offended by what folk say on the forum. None of it is personal, it is purely debate.
    When I first joined the forum I got involved in a debate about drinking and cycling (my opinion being that you shouldn't), and felt a bit 'lynched' after that, folk just have strong opinions that is all, of course they are all usually wrong ;)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  7. steveo
    Member

    There seem to be several posts that do support the excellent EEN view of cyclists as "smug & self-righteous" sorry, that should be "Self-Congratulatory and Smug"

    See now you're just trolling....

    Posted 13 years ago #
  8. Morningsider
    Member

    arne - care to highlight a few of these posts you mention?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  9. Min
    Member

    At this point we may be down to the differences between the different roads that we ride our folders (and non-folders) on, and the level of traffic when we're doing it.

    Yes it could be. My observations have come from riding different bikes at the same times on the same roads. I did have a week of stress-free folder riding over the last half term though which probably just reinforces it!

    "I wonder if the folder is perceived as "slower" than the road bike?"

    I think this is exactly what it is which is why I am so deeply sceptical of cycle chic in a city which is not prepared for it.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  10. AKen
    Member

    I am so deeply sceptical of cycle chic in a city which is not prepared for it.

    I am deeply sceptical of cycle chic in a climatic zone that is not prepared for it.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  11. wingpig
    Member

    "I am deeply sceptical of cycle chic in a climatic zone that is not prepared for it."

    I assume you mean that it's usually way too warm round here for it to appear comfortable to be togged-up in a suit whilst cycling?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  12. arne_saknussen
    Member

    Calm down, calm down. I don't know any of the personalities involved, but there does seem to be a tendancy to take points made as personal slights to individual sartorial style rather than to the forum as a whole. I don't personally care if people wear big shorts, little shorts, 3/4 length trousers, Crombie overcoats or Ronald Macdonald costumes, and certainly didn't intend to cause irritation to those who do.
    Baldycyclist thank you, I'm not offended. Like you I know I'm right. Steveo: what is "trolling"?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  13. steveo
    Member

    Troll. AKA EEN commentator....

    Posted 13 years ago #
  14. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Is it an acceptable compromise to wear my usual rig-out of helmet, sunglasses and lycra, so long as I wear a large fur hat over the helmet, some fashion sunglasses over my prescription ones and a flowing, flowery dress over my lycra t-shirt and shorts so they can't be seen?

    That way I get to continue wearing what I like to wear and find comfortable and practical, but I amn't offending the easily offended or putting off the easily putable-off from getting on their bikes.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  15. Morningsider
    Member

    arne - I do hope you take up cycling one day. Just a word of warning though - aero helmets don't come in mint.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  16. "I thought this sort of thread was normal for cycling forums? ;-)"

    We just do it with a little more... panache. Edinburghised... ;)

    In the summer I'll occasionally wear a very loud Hawaian shirt that I have. Mainly because it's fun and makes me feel summery. I definitely got some funny looks from drivers, which kinda proved they'd seen me. Personally I'd qualify this shirt as much more 'bizarre' on the road than the Berghaus mid-layer I usually wear. Although that is hillwalking specific wear that might put people off walking in the Pentlands...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  17. Roibeard
    Member

    @arne_saknussen - I only joined yesterday and there is a lynch mob outside already.

    LOL

    Don't forget that we've also invited you to come to a public location to join us for coffee.

    No point in having a good lynching unless you can serve as an example to the others!

    Seriously though, do take us up on the offer for the next, semi-organised coffee - we don't bite, even if that is how it might come across on screen...

    Robert

    Posted 13 years ago #
  18. arne_saknussen
    Member

    "the Berghaus mid-layer I usually wear. Although that is hillwalking specific wear that might put people off walking in the Pentlands..."
    Ignoring your intended irony and moving smartly along, I have seen walkers on the Pentlands ridge wearing half the stock from Tisos including 4-season boots & carrying GPS. They probably felt that this was entirely justified for the hazardous traverse (That man is wearing jeans! Doesn't he know that you can DIE wearing jeans on a hill?)
    Are they deluded or sensible? It probably doesn't matter as long as they're doing no harm to anybody else. All in all I am persuaded by the weight of arguement (which is surely the aim of debate) Real Cyclists are NOT the enemy. If you see a largish chap wearing full 1997 Lampre team kit on your commute tomorrow, give him a cheery wave, for he is a converted true believer.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  19. I did my first Munro in jeans. Managed it no bother (Ben Vane, so quite a small one, but about 17 false tops which got annoying). But Munros, hills and coastlines since then I've realised I'm more comfy in walking troos.

    '97 Lampre 'aint a bad kit. Still like Lemond's 'Z' kit though.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    I go away for an afternoon of 'road safety' meetings and things take off...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  21. S'alright - classic CCE thread drift, we're onto hillwalking...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  22. wingpig
    Member

    This irony lark is jolly fun, isn't it?
    I didn't get the impression that anyone was trying to convert anyone to any particular sartorial paradigm, just to promote awareness that the wearer's reasons for wearing what they wear might not be the reasons assumed by an observer.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    "give him a cheery wave, for he is a converted true believer"

    Truce, truth or irony?

    (It doesn't matter)

    Re 'smug'.

    Had a conversation last night about whether it was always derogatory.

    No firm conclusion.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  24. Dave
    Member

    I do like to derogate at people. Why not? I could be sitting behind them in the jam in the motor, instead I'm flying past them, *and* I have a nicer motor than I would have for a daily grind...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  25. cb
    Member

    Because I am more 'into' hill walking than cycling I have often wondered about comparisons with cycling around having the right gear (technical and safety) and being seen to have the right gear.

    But the comparison doesn't really work; no one is really trying to promote hill walking in the way that cycling is being promoted (as a form of transport).

    As has been commented on many times before, cycling seems to be a unique sport in that you can cycle to the shows but you can't <any-other-sport> to the shops.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  26. arne_saknussen
    Member

    Truth: the prevailing view has, er, prevailed. I want to fit in. Just tell me where I can buy one of these "sartorial paradigms" and I'll get it. Do EBC stock them? Plenty of scotchlite I hope.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  27. Roibeard
    Member

    @arne - I think you'll be a bit confused, and not very sartorially elegant, if you attempt to fit in with the CCE dress code.

    You'll require a Schrödinger helmet, a long flowing summer dress/miniskirt/kilt, probably made out of cotton/tweed/Lycra, in cerise/flo yellow/honey oat and your bike should be fixie/folder/racer/recumbent/tandem also colour coordinated with your outfit.

    As for fitting in with the posting ethos, I think you're already there...

    :-0

    Robert

    Posted 13 years ago #
  28. Smudge
    Member

    "Is it an acceptable compromise to wear my usual rig-out of helmet, sunglasses and lycra, so long as I wear a large fur hat over the helmet, some fashion sunglasses over my prescription ones and a flowing, flowery dress over my lycra t-shirt and shorts so they can't be seen?

    That way I get to continue wearing what I like to wear and find comfortable and practical, but I amn't offending the easily offended or putting off the easily putable-off from getting on their bikes. "

    I trust you'll trial this look at the next PY so we can all help you assess its effectiveness? :-D

    Btw, Hello Fimm (waves), do you by any chance commute via Haymarket? I recollect being slightly surprised to notice a Brompton rider appear one night as a road warrior a little while ago! ;-)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  29. From irony to sarcasm...

    cb, yeah, it's pretty difficult to align cycling with other 'sports' really, which is why the differences in opinion spring up more. I guess you can jog to the shops.

    Seriously though Arne, I've been to Copenhagen and met Mikael, and loved, absolutely loved the 'normalness' of it all. But I think that changing things in the UK we need infrastructure and driver attitudes 'first', and then normal clothes. I don't think normal clothes will suddenly make the roads safer; but make the roads safer and people will wear normal clothes.

    Copenhagen is beautiful. Very like Edinburgh in a lot of respects (though flatter). With, throughout and around about, separated cyclepaths that cars and pedestrians stay out of. Edinburgh... Has cycle lanes that are official car parks at weekends.

    I actually have no problem riding on the road - at the same time I don't think we can have a rtue cycling culture without the infrastructure changes. That I think brings about more cyclists on bikes, rather than more normal clothes on the same amount of bikes.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    "just to promote awareness that the wearer's reasons for wearing what they wear might not be the reasons assumed by an observer"

    I think we should have a wisdom page.

    Posted 13 years ago #

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