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A Bridge Too Far?
LISTEN :
This Programme Is On Air Now:
Listen Live on BBC Radio 4 (Started at 20:00)
SYNOPSIS
To the west of Edinburgh, construction of the new £1.5bn Forth road bridge will use cement shipped across the North Sea under a contract with a German supplier. Scotland's only cement company, based 40 miles from the bridge, was unsuccessful in the bidding. It is claimed that the deal could have maintained 130 jobs in the Dunbar area.
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So much for the benefits that this white elephant is supposed to bring to the Scottish economy then.
The Dunbar Blue Circle plant is connected to the railway, so cement could have trundled up the ECML and easily accessed both sides of the Forth. I assume now there will be a fleet of lorries to carry it from Grangemouth or Leith (or knowing this lot, Hunterston) instead.
Article about this on BBC website this morning: "Welsh prioritise job creation over cost when awarding government contracts" - it can be done better.
The real question is why can't Blue Circle compete? The German company has transport costs on top of everything yet is still cheaper....
The german company are perhaps not producing it using german labour.
And? Protectionist economies are rarely very successful, besides how much British fruit is picked with British labour?
"and?"
If the basic product is the same, where is the cost differential?
My point is that blue circle dunbar may produce at one rate, but a German company producing in Hungary (say) may produce it for less.
Its the same argument in clothing, electronics etc - I am not advocating protectionism at all.
"The real question is why can't Blue Circle compete?"
Perhaps, but the main point of the programme was that the UK (apart from Wales) tend to offer tenders for the whole job - with no control on sub-contractors or conditions about using local suppliers.
So Blue Circle - not British owned - probable weren't asked 'how much'.
My point is that blue circle dunbar may produce at one rate, but a German company producing in Hungary (say) may produce it for less.
We are probably a bit far down the globalisation road to start worrying about where a product ultimately comes from, they may produce it for less but that is the "problem" of Blue Circle or the Coal Board or British Layland or Raleigh/Sturmey archer. These days if you can't compete on cost you need to compete on something and for something as cheap and heavy as cement location is pretty big factor. Complaining that those pesky foreigners can do it cheaper doesn't really cut it. As a tax payer if this folly must be done I'd prefer it to cost as little as possible.
Though as Chdot points out its moot since the German company seem to be a full end to end not just the cement people.
I'm not advocating protectionism either - Blue Circle are owned by Lafarge who are French. However I think that when the Government comes to do the maths about offering contracts for massive public investment, they would do to factor in some environmental economics/mathematics there too - as in it may cost less in pounds and pence to buy it from Germany but what is the cost of shipping it across North Sea in a bunker-oil fuelled ship and then driving it in diesel powered lorries on the roads.
This isn't a few bags of cement, it's going to be some tens of thousands of tons I'd wager.
And when it comes to vanity / white elephant projects like needless bridges, I thought the attraction to the Government would have been it was all about protectionism? What's the point in Scotland indebting itself to the tune of a couple of billion quid for all that money to be spent outside the country on German cement and Chinese cables? At least we can blame shoddy German engineering or Spanish trambuilders when that breaks down on the first day :)
steveo, I dont think we are fundamentally disagreeing. I love my foreign products!
Had a re-read of the bbc article. Steel is coming from spain, poland and china.
Interesting route the welsh took to get round the protectionism rules - requirement for apprenticeships, weightings on environmental/sustainability etc.
I should also say that while advocating british for the sake of it is silly, there can be valid reasons to pay for local production (even if the parent is not local) - e.g. buying a brooks or carradice rather than a plastic far eastern knock off.
I don't disagree about transport, the cost of fuel is usually a big enough driver that "green" factors are a given. If we are going to use X kt of fuel oil to ship this stuff the product has to be y cheaper, with that in mind I still have to wonder how the local plant is so much more expensive.
Again I have to wonder, why is it that British companies aren't getting these tenders? Are they trying, too expensive, not enough experience, bad experiences with them...?
"As a tax payer if this folly must be done I'd prefer it to cost as little as possible"
Yes, but.
Taxpayers will also be picking up the bill for the people in the UK who might have had jobs.
I hope the SNP isn't demonstrating complete cynicism with it's lowest-bidder-bridge knowIng that unemployment benefits are 'paid from London'.
"Interesting route the welsh took to get round the protectionism rules"
The programme gave the impression that the Welsh were playing by the letter and spirit of EU laws. 'Problem' seems to be that Whitehall (and VQ) civil servants were over-interpreting the rules and blaming foreigners for cheating...
blaming foreigners for cheating...
I think that is quite common with most things relating to the EU.
I have a vague memory that some upset was caused in the first war when allied troops advancing over German dugouts found bags evidencing that they had been built with blue circle cement... or is that an urban myth and I deserve the QI klaxons?!?
This is hardly a unique or special case. 4 new RN Support Tankers are coming from ..... South Korea. I thought shipbuilding was something we still did?
Smudge: I think I can add something to that. I read an account of the Arctic Convoys in which the author remembered seeing the quayside in Murmansk(?) laden with Blue Circle cement. He noted wryly (given what it had taken to get it there) that at least someone was benefitting from the war. Can't remember the name of the book.
I've got an odd feeling that it was David Niven but I haven't read his books for years.
Perhaps if Westminster had not spent 30 years running down industry in favour of services then things would be different.
Have a Googles for Ms Lamont's recent question on the steel for the bridge. I think she asked it three times.
"The real question is why can't Blue Circle compete?"
Maybe they just quoted first, meaning the other company could undercut them knowing full well that the costs can expand as much as they want once the project is underway. This is Scotland after all, we have form and plenty of it.
Don't ignore the most basic raw material of all, money.
Will the project be funded by loans from UK banks? Were UK-based bidders supported by investment in plant and research from UK banks?
Don't know the answers, but the capital flows probably matter more in the end than the disposal of individual contracts.
"Don't ignore the most basic raw material of all, money."
Programme mentioned role of German banks in the Crossrail contract going to Siemens not Bombardier (Derby).
Was it not the case that for the original Forth Bridge the engineers looked all around the world (Empire?) for suitable cement and settled on a local company.
Started to Google this, but someone on here will know, if there is something to know.
(Seem to remember learning this at school).
This is hardly a unique or special case. 4 new RN Support Tankers are coming from ..... South Korea
Apparently no British shipbuilder even bothered to bid. I think BVT (BAE - Vosper Thornycroft) is the only shipbuilder still in existense that could have built these.
Likewise all of Calmac's recent large ferry orders have gone to Poland.
I have a vague memory that some upset was caused in the first war when allied troops advancing over German dugouts found bags evidencing that they had been built with blue circle cement
Not sure, but the brand name is old enough (was the Associated Portland Cement Company).
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