Riding on the Canal discussion « CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum

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Riding on the Canal discussion

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Started 13 years ago by chdot
Latest reply from gembo

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chdot
Admin

There are currently two active discussions - Harrison Park and Leamington Bridge that have both 'drifted' to more general discussions about usage, sharing (cyclists, pedestrians, dogs, prams) and rules - dismount, 6mph etc.

Yesterday BW replied to emails, which is a good start for a 'discussion'.

Perhaps 'we' can reach some conclusions about what could be done to encourage more people to behave reasonably (some cyclists are not even 'reasonable' to other cyclists!).

6mph is not likely to be adhered to by anyone on a bike and is therefore counterproductive.

Cyclists are increasingly (I think) becoming aware that Cyclists Dismount signs are often unreasonable (and indicate that councils don't understand/care about appropriate infrastructure) and are unlikely to be seen 'in Europe'.

The aqueduct is a bit different.

Some people are nervous about riding and prefer to walk - fair enough.

Most ride carefully and stop to allow others to get past.

Some people ride as though they are the only people in the world and ride 'through' others.

There have even been suggestions that 'it says on BW web site that you have to dismount at every bridge'.

Riding along the canal should be enjoyable for all. Moderating speed, keeping dogs under control etc. should just be normal behaviour.

Rules that are (or appear to be) discriminatory or discredited just lead to resentment, confusion and conflict.

Discuss!

Posted 13 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

I personally find the canal path to be too narrow for it to be enjoyable to share the space (until, probably, crossing the aquaduct).

The 6mph speed limit is a bit like a 20mph limit on a road - cyclists/drivers think that the speed is artificially and unnecessarily too low and so don't think they need to adhere to it.

Of course if one of the problems is narrowness then the deliberate narrowing the Leamington bridge so as to require cyclists to dismount makes you question whether they want cyclists using the canal paths at all.

And finally, in Brittany this year we cycled on successive days along the Nantes/Brest canal. We covered about 50 miles of its length. It had bridges to go under, towns to pass through, and roads to cross. There wasn't a single 'Cyclists Dismount' sign, not one. There were no speed limits. There were no speed bumps or chicanes. At some roads there were gates, but most were navigable while still pedalling. In short it was the most enjoyable couple of days cycling I had undertaken in years.

I've ridden Edinburgh to Glasgow along the canal once. It... wasn't the same...

Posted 13 years ago #
steveo
Member

The chicanes and speed bumps are a consequence of irresponsible riding just as speed bumps and traffic management are the consequences of irresponsible driving. There are a lot of cyclist on the canal (at peak time) who use it like a road, they are too fast for the conditions and some of them think that the bell does mean stand aside peon. Personally if I'm in the mood for a pootle I'll consider the canal but often as not I'm in a hurry so I take the road.

I'm sure I have in the past regaled the group of my tails of being passed by a runner on one such pootle.

Posted 13 years ago #
wingpig
Member

Though the blind-corner-yness of all the bridges doesn't stop people steaming through them, I wonder how behaviour on the big aqueduct is affected by being able to see all the way along the path across it from the approaches, particularly from the east?

I think I managed to get from the Allan Park Road access to the Cutlins turn-off last week without seeing a 6mph sign, though because I know they're there I tend not to use the canal as much these days in order to avoid incurring too many disobeying-instruction-due-to-unreasonableness points. I can't remember if there used to be a Dismount information-board on the small aqueduct over Slateford Road but there isn't one there at the moment when approaching it from town, though it's much wider than the cobbledy Inglis Green Road one.

Posted 13 years ago #
fimm
Member

I think that there are no easy answers to this one. The towpath is as it is - yes you could widen it but would you actually want to loose the strip of greenery between the path and the water? Is this not actually something that helps to keep one from cycling/falling into the water? Do we want a nice wide strip of tarmac that means it is possible to cycle fast, or do we want to keep the more characterful path that exists? There really isn't space for some sort of two-way cycle path with a separate pedestrian space alongside it so it will always be some kind of shared use path.

Posted 13 years ago #
alibali
Member

I use the canal towpath as far as the lift bridge most days but I doubt I would want to walk on it at commute times.

There are just to many press-on cyclists in both directions to make it a pleasant experience and I've every sympathy with those who stand their ground when cyclists try to pass at speed.

Of course, it makes it hard to be polite and considerate as a gentle warning tinkle is often intepreted as "get out of the way!" and things go downhill from there.

Waving or saying "thanks" is usually met with surprise, which is dissapointing.

I think a set of well signed and widely agreed behaviours is probably needed, sooner rather than later. I'm not sure what they should be, though.

Posted 13 years ago #
wingpig
Member

"...but would you actually want to loose the strip of greenery between the path and the water?"

It needs all the greenery it can get to help keep the bank tied together, give wee beasts places to live and to assist with drainage. The alternative would be an entire canal like the wider but soulless Wester Hailes section, with wide concrete paths on concrete banks.

"I think a set of well signed and widely agreed behaviours is probably needed, sooner rather than later. I'm not sure what they should be, though."

There's bike polite's "slow down when passing pedestrians and at bridges" advice for canal towpaths. Even just a couple of big signs saying "This path is for EVERYONE. YOU are responsible for YOUR behaviour; KEEP NICE and STEADY ON" or something.

Posted 13 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

"There really isn't space for some sort of two-way cycle path with a separate pedestrian space alongside it so it will always be some kind of shared use path."

Exactly, there's the nub. The thing is there are plenty of pavements and so on that are requested as shared use that don't get made so because they're too narrow, and yet they're wider than the canal towpath.

Shared use in a narrow space works if people are willing to ride slowly and considerately. Sadly people are people, whether on foot or on a bike or in a car, and a minority will spoil it for everyone else.

Posted 13 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"makes you question whether they want cyclists using the canal paths at all"

Well certain BW people used to very 'anti-cyclist'.

Some of the money for towpath improvements has come from CEC and Sustrans, particularly for encouraging cycle use.

"The chicanes and speed bumps are a consequence of irresponsible riding"

I think there is some truth in that. Used to be the case that such things were 'to stop motorbikes'

It was pointed out that the majority were suffering because of a small minority of kids with motorbikes - though in some places it was doubtful if there really was a 'problem'.

Posted 13 years ago #
Uberuce
Member

If I knew a way of anthropomorphising Gilmore/Polworth road I'd do a poster of it saying "Don't you love me any more, Roadie? Does that cheating scum have bigger chicanes than me?"

Posted 13 years ago #
spytfyre
Member

A wee sign for bikes: RING YOUR BELL
A wee sign for peds:
Treat this like a country road highway code - walk on the right- you will see oncoming cyclists who can then make eye contact and they avoid you rather than cyclists from behind havig to avoid.
Also, don't walk 3 abreast filling the path, keep dogs on a lead, don't tut when a cyclist rings a bell, you'll encourage them not to and annoy those that like hearing a warning

Posted 13 years ago #
Min
Member

"Treat this like a country road highway code - walk on the right- you will see oncoming cyclists who can then make eye contact and they avoid you rather than cyclists from behind havig to avoid."

Although this should be correct, I actually don't like it because then the cyclist facing towards the ped is the one that has to give way to an oncoming cyclist(since the ped is on their side). 9 times out of 10, if you slow or stop while a ped is walking towards you, they immediately step in front of the cyclist behind them who is coming the other way.

Posted 13 years ago #
PS
Member

The answer is the one that solves most contentious issues in life: people should show some consideration for others. Also covered by the handy phrase: "Don't be a dick".

Unfortunately, it's easier to say than to enforce...

Posted 13 years ago #
Greenroofer
Member

Agree with Min - I prefer it if pedestrians on the same side as me have their back to me, as that way I can trickle along behind them until it's clear. If they're walking towards me we both have to stop, and, as she says, the pedestrian then tends to step sideways into the path of the oncoming bike.

We really do need a clear statement of the "rules" at every entrance to the towpath. Rules are as stated above: it's a shared use path/ring your bell/don't have your walkman too loud/and for goodness sake keep that bl**dy dog under control.

Similarly, the Slateford Aqueduct would be fine if there was a sign at one end that said 'cyclists give way to oncoming bikes and pedestrians', and a sign at the other that said 'cyclists give way to oncoming pedestrians, but you have priority over oncoming bikes'.

Basically, if there was a clear set of published good behaviour, we'd all be fine. Right now there isn't.

Posted 13 years ago #
Greenroofer
Member
P.S. When I'm overtaking another bike on the towpath path, which I sometimes do, I...
- Wait for a safe place to overtake.
- Give them two tings and wait for a reaction (usually a move to the side).
- Come past if it's safe.
I don't usually say anything as I come by (unless the weather's truly atrocious, when I will make a comment about that).

Do you normally make any comments to a fellow cyclist as you overtake? When it's somewhere narrow like the towpath, we do tend to pass each other quite close.
Posted 13 years ago #
chdot
Admin

There are times when you just have to accept that you will be riding at walking pace.

People in this photo all acting reasonably (dog on lead!) and don't seem bothered by cyclist (me).

Busy day on the canal

If you 'must' travel at 'inappropriate' speed and are not willing to slow down graciously, keep off the canal.

Bells - we've discussed before! 'Ideal' would be for everyone to ring in a uniform non-aggressive/impatient way, but...

Posted 13 years ago #
PS
Member

Actually, what this all shows is a piece of infrastructure that is over-capacity. Perhaps the message is that if CEC wants to meet its cycling targets it can't rely on the canal providing the prime westerly cycle route.

Posted 13 years ago #
chdot
Admin

From other thread "Mirrors under the bridges to see oncoming ped/cycles is genius too."

There must be plenty of bridges where a well placed mirror (probably above the water - so would need to make sure that it was visible to and/or out of way of boat users) would be a great safety measure.

Posted 13 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"Perhaps the message is that if CEC wants to meet its cycling targets it can't rely on the canal providing the prime westerly cycle route."

You thinking of this one?

http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=6149#post-65681

Posted 13 years ago #
PS
Member

TBH, I don't know the other westerly cycle routes at all well. However, I'd be willing to guess that they're not great on the basis of your photo. ;-)

Posted 13 years ago #
Min
Member

"Actually, what this all shows is a piece of infrastructure that is over-capacity. Perhaps the message is that if CEC wants to meet its cycling targets it can't rely on the canal providing the prime westerly cycle route."

Yes indeed. I am sure more cyclists would be on the road if they felt safe using it..

Posted 13 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"
Yes indeed. I am sure more cyclists would be on the road if they felt safe using it..

"

Yes, though my impression is that some of the full-on riders (especially at commuting time) look like the sort of people already cycling on the road.

Plus some mountain bikers going to/from Bonaly (via WoL path) who might not be comfortable with traffic(?)

Posted 13 years ago #
Bhachgen
Member

When I started using the bike to commute home to Leith from Livingston about a year ago, I initially used the canal all the way from just south of Broxburn to Fountainbridge. Latterly unless I specifically needed to get to Tollcross for some reason I always came away from the canal after crossing the City Bypass.

It's far too busy and far too narrow for cyclists to use at speed, and those that do so need to take a good look at themselves. Great facility for pootling along with kids and/or a loved one. Not at all suitable for commuting further than a mile or two unless you're in no rush to get to work / home for tea.

Unfortunately CEC seem to be of the view that with the canal path in place there is no need for any other cycle-friendly infrastructure in that area.

Posted 13 years ago #
Uberuce
Member

I just hope the department of They doesn't come up with yet another piece of infrastructure which gives inconsiderate cyclists new and interesting ways of endangering or alarming pedestrians(the chicanes) or actually penalises both cyclists and buggy/wheelchair users if they stay on their allocated side of the path(the Broomhouse rumbles).

Posted 13 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"Unfortunately CEC seem to be of the view that with the canal path in place there is no need for any other cycle-friendly infrastructure in that area."

I don't think that's strictly true - I don't think CEC takes nearly enough interest in any continuous routes other than ones that happen to be off-road - Innocent + NEPN.

How much better the KB corridor will be remains to be seen

Posted 13 years ago #
gembo
Member

@bhachgen

As you point out the only contentious piece of the canal all the way to Falkirk and on to Cowcaddens (apart from puddles) is the stretch from Lochrin Basin to the Slateford Aqueduct.

dave on the parallel string indicates he could get to Ratho and only pass 6 people

I come off at Cutlins or Longstone Park and this avoids contention

I did stay on to Lochrin Basin a few weeks back and felt that the pedestrians had become more militant than in days gone by but I was not in a hurry nor in a mood to get wound up, it was a sunny morning, I was heading to the museum for a conference.

Aqueduct to Lochrin is not optimal for commuting during rush hour but a little after the schools start until a little before they come out, even the busy stretch is quiet.

Posted 13 years ago #

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