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BBC1 this morning - IAM poll

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  1. Min
    Member

    Did anyone see the bit on BBC1 this morning about RLJing cyclists? A survey done by IAM suggests that 50% of cyclists admit to going through a red light at least once. Only 20% of motorists admit to the same (which seems extremely low to me considering how many keep driving through junctions after the light has gone red).

    They had a man from IAM and a woman from some cycling group I can't remember. The woman seemed to think she had to argue with the IAM guy but in fact I reckon he did better than she did and pointed out how badly the road system fails cyclists. Pretty good really.

    Also, has anyone else seen the BBC Politics Ident thing? They illustrate cycling with a cyclist rubbing his greasy palm over the window of some poor beleaguered, law-abiding motorist then breaking their wing mirror. Very annoying.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  2. I could actually believe the driver figure. It's actually more difficult for a motorist to run a red light. Sure the first one or two can skip through as it changes, but all it takes is the person at the front stopping and another car can't get by.

    A cyclist can filter to the front of a stationary queue and then jump the light. It's also easier for a cyclist to jump lights with peds crossing, as they can eave between the pedestrians, I've never seen a car go across a crossroads with pedestrians all over the place, zig-zagging in about them - definitely seen people on bikes do that.

    None of this is condoning anyone jumping red lights, and I know where the relative harm lies, but it's just an illustration of how much easier it is to jump lights on a bike, and therefore probably statistically more likely to happen (although 50% seems high, I presume it was London cyclists they polled).

    As for the BBC politics ident. Yep. Really really annoying. Cyclists are about the only group (save the the coughing at the bus fumes) that is shown in an entirely negative light.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  3. crowriver
    Member

    Yeah, they had an article in yesterday's Grauniad bike blog too.

    I took part in that survey, having see it posted here on CCE I think, or maybe it was Spokes or CTC newsletter. Anyway, I'm hacked off that the IAM chose to spin it this way: they asked lots of other questions about road safety and I don't see any headlines about them.

    I saw a driver run a red light just yesterday evening in Morningside. The usual acceleration as the lights are changing, "Oh it's gone red I'll just carry on regardless". Happens all the time. I stopped at the red light, as I usually do.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  4. SRD
    Moderator

    Didn't hear it. saw thing in guardian & elsewhere yesterday. Wrote and complained to IAM that they misrepresented data. Survey also badly designed. I completed it because Spokes was encouraging people to - never again!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  5. SRD
    Moderator

    Crowriver - write to IAM and complain!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  6. amir
    Member

    Journalism is sometimes shameful and the IAM should know better. Never let truth get in the way of a "good" story.

    The RSS tries to promote better standards through awards http://www.rss.org.uk/journalismaward

    Posted 13 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    "
    BikeBiz‏ @BikeBizOnline

    The Guardian has also taken the IAM press release apart now... http://tinyurl.com/cum4288

    "

    Posted 13 years ago #
  8. Roibeard
    Member

    A dreadful piece of research, reported poorly.

    Check out the alternative pseudo-research, although this may have a better set of premises for extending into proper research:

    Chester Cycling RLJ research

    Robert

    Posted 13 years ago #
  9. Tom
    Member

    Well just to get a bit empirical about this I had a look around Google Streets and found a red light jumper. And yes it was a car about five hundred metres from here:

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Musselburgh&hl=en&ll=55.943539,-3.067598&spn=0.000689,0.001257&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=62.61328,60.029297&t=h&hnear=Musselburgh,+East+Lothian,+United+Kingdom&z=20&layer=c&cbll=55.943539,-3.067598&panoid=2i-DOeHTX0at9dyGz3du5A&cbp=12,38.86,,0,11.08

    Posted 13 years ago #
  10. amir
    Member

    I have written an email to IAM

    Posted 13 years ago #
  11. ZenGwen
    Member

    I saw it this morning at the gym, watching while I was on the treadmill - made me rage a bit, I set a new personal record on the 5k!

    The thing that really got me was the IAM fellow commenting how dangerous cyclists made the roads for motorists.

    Edited to add: Also when he said something to the effect of "We asked the same thing of motorists and got a very low response" - well yes, if you're a dedicated motoring group asking motorists whether they have broken the law, you're going to get a fairly low positive rate no matter what, aren't you...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  12. Aye, we're always mowing them down in their cars!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    Well if it's 50% should be legal.

    That's democracy init(?)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  14. Min
    Member

    but all it takes is the person at the front stopping and another car can't get by.

    But the question was whether a person had EVER run a red light, not whether they ran every red light.

    And the spin put on it by the IAM guy, just to reiterate, was that cyclists ran red light because they didn't feel safe at junctions and so therefore junctions should be redesigned. I am not sure why that needs complaints unless I am missing something somewhere?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  15. Min
    Member

    "The thing that really got me was the IAM fellow commenting how dangerous cyclists made the roads for motorists."

    I obviously did miss something somewhere.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  16. SRD
    Moderator

    "And the spin put on it by the IAM guy, just to reiterate, was that cyclists ran red light because they didn't feel safe at junctions and so therefore junctions should be redesigned. I am not sure why that needs complaints unless I am missing something somewhere?"

    Oh good! That was EXACTLY what I said in my comments on the survey. Glad that got out there! Did they mention mums with kids in seats? :)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  17. "But the question was whether a person had EVER run a red light, not whether they ran every red light"

    Yes, but then the headline on their own press release was that 57% of cyclists run read lights, despite only 14% admitting to doing it all the time.

    Anyway, for motorists those who do it at every light is probably way way lower as well, because to run every light would require them being at the head of the queue every time the light just turns red.

    I'm running into not being able to explain very well again. Let's try this. Red light running in a car is a very different beast to red light running on a bike. I actually think that the grand majority of people in a car probably have never run a red light because they're further back in a queue, or the light has been red long before they get to it (I'm not saying this doesn't happen, but for pedestrian reasons etc etc etc, it's more difficult to do in a car). And that 'speeding up as the light goes amber' thing isn't, technically, red light running, it's amber-gambling, which still means that, honestly, someone can say they have never run a red light.

    It's easier to do on a bike, with more opportunity (given filtering and so on) so there will always be more cyclists admit to running a red light than motorists.

    "I am not sure why that needs complaints unless I am missing something somewhere?"

    Because, reading their press release, they lead with "57% of cyclists run red lights" which is misrepresentative of the actual results (it suggests 57% do it all the time which isn't the case) and employs the lovely "cyclists have to help themselves" line...

    "Cyclists are right to feel that roads are not cycle friendly enough, and this is reflected in their behaviour. But while poor junction design, inconsistent cycle paths and inconsiderate drivers put cyclists at risk, cyclists also have to help themselves" (essentially, we realise that there are bits of the road that are dangerous for you to use in a legal manner, but you should use them in a legal manner and run the risk of being squashed rather than being naughty).

    The IAM are are even-handed organisation, and it's really the headline that annoys me more, simply because, as Bike Biz points out, the red tops will go nuts for this. 57% = 'all'.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  18. ZenGwen
    Member

    Couldn't have said it better myself anth.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  19. Roibeard
    Member

    @Anth - Chester Cycling make the same case, and in their observations they list RLJ where the pilot had the opportunity to jump. Obviously two wheeled vehicles have increased opportunity to RLJ due to the ability to filter, yet on the other hand appear less frequently at junctions - Chester has more 4+ wheeled vehicles than 2 wheeled vehicles in rush hour.

    They also list failure to stop at the appropriate line, and found that 100% of bus drivers intruded into the ASZ where it was possible [1].

    And although speeding up through amber isn't jumping a red light, it is "failure to stop" which is what is being signalled...

    Robert
    [1] In a very small sample size of 3.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  20. Min
    Member

    SRD
    Oh good! That was EXACTLY what I said in my comments on the survey. Glad that got out there! Did they mention mums with kids in seats? :)

    No but he was saying this was the case for the majority of times that people had run a red light - ie most people in the survey, presumably apart from the ones that run them all the time.

    Anth "I actually think that the grand majority of people in a car probably have never run a red light because they're further back in a queue, or the light has been red long before they get to it "

    Yes but considering how many traffic lights the average motorist must go through, it seems extremely unlikely that the majority have never been at the front when the lights have started to change.

    " And that 'speeding up as the light goes amber' thing isn't, technically, red light running, it's amber-gambling, which still means that, honestly, someone can say they have never run a red light."

    Yes but speeding up when the light turns red and driving through it is still red light running. I see it all the time.

    I totally understand that per traffic light cycle, it is much easier to run a red light on a bike but when the question is have you ever I can't help feeling that motorists just don't think it counts when they do it.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  21. Min
    Member

    "The IAM are are even-handed organisation, and it's really the headline that annoys me more, simply because, as Bike Biz points out, the red tops will go nuts for this. 57% = 'all'."

    I agree.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  22. amir
    Member

    I have received a response from IAM:

    "Thanks for your email.

    We received complaints on the press release from journalists yesterday morning, and did reissue it with some changes following the feedback that the opening paragraph was misleading.

    To see the latest release – which all concerned media have also received – please visit: http://www.iam.org.uk/news/latest-news/1054-more-than-half-of-cyclists-jump-red-lights

    If you check the press release on the website you will also see that we did include the primary reasons cyclists do jump the lights, and in the reissue we also added in the body of the release (as opposed to just in the notes to editors) the figures for drivers who do the same. While the headline highlighted the number of cyclists jumping red lights, the release did include other relevant findings, including the number of drivers ignoring advanced stop lines, so I don’t think it is fair to say we focused on only one issue.

    I am sorry you were disappointed by the release, and the headline could be called sensationalist – I don’t disagree, but I disagree with the claim we exaggerated the validity of an online poll. In the reissue of the press release we made it clear where the information came from. We never at any point called this ‘research’.

    As the response to this release shows, there is a recognition that there is an issue here and we believe we have stimulated a healthy debate. The rise in cycling in England is a transport policy success but infrastructure and road user awareness are lagging behind. Our role in improving behaviour is a given but, by highlighting the fact that cyclists run red lights for predominantly self preservation reasons we believe we are contributing to the tidal wave of support for more investment in safer roads for riders and driver alike.

    I hope that explains our position,"

    Posted 13 years ago #
  23. amir
    Member

    TBH I don't think any reputable organisation should ever use online polls to drive a story. As I said to them, there are much better sources of information.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  24. earthowned
    Member

    It's ironic that in the last few days I've seen so many blatant examples of red light jumping from cars, for example:

    http://www.naden.de/blog/bbvideo-bbpress-video-plugin -->

    [+] Embed the video | Red Light Jumping

    " target="_blank">Video Download
    Get the Flash Videos

    Mind you poor junction design and traffic light placement can account for a lot of infringements.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  25. steveo
    Member

    More people should've read slashdot in the day (still should). They always have little pools with a disclaimer on the bottom which should apply to any online survey!.

    This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  26. Roibeard
    Member

    @earthowned - that's a pretty impressive haul. 4 RLJ, including a vehicle with an instructor in charge!

    Robert

    Posted 13 years ago #
  27. Baldcyclist
    Member

    What are the chances of 4 cyclists taking the same day off of the bike, and finding themselves at the same junction at the same time in their cars?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  28. PS
    Member

    "And the spin put on it by the IAM guy, just to reiterate, was that cyclists ran red light because they didn't feel safe at junctions and so therefore junctions should be redesigned."

    [Devil's advocate] But that's not the only reason. I had the pleasure of a couple of mid-morning cycles through town last week - basically up the Bridges, round Potterow, down George IV Bridge, The Mound and Hanover St.
    On both trips I must have seen 5 or 6 cyclists roll through red lights where there wasn't the slightest risk to their safety of waiting on red - no HGVs, buses, queues of taxis.
    In fact, I would suggest that they substantially reduced their safety by entering crossroads on a red. Unwillingness to wait or be held up was their key driver.[/Devil's advocate]

    Posted 13 years ago #
  29. fimm
    Member

    I'm one of the 57% - because I answered "yes" to the option about going through on amber, in the sense of a thought process along the lines of "oh that light is changing, oh do I have time to stop, oops I didn't stop but I think I probably could have..." (lets draw the line under going through on red due to not being awake yet...)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  30. crowriver
    Member

    @earthowned, I cross that junction as a pedestrian or cyclist every day. My son's primary school is on the left of that junction, and it's on my cycle route to work.

    The traffic lights are a real issue there: pedestrian phase across the second set of lights is designed to maximise traffic flow, with the left hand pedestrian phase much shorter. So we often get stranded on the traffic island while crossing the road. The alternative is to cross in one go at the lights you were stopped at, but then one has to cross the side street (Abbey Street) with no pedestrian signal and a risk of a right or left hook from a car turning into the street.

    I have written to the council about this junction (twice, once exactly a year ago, once two weeks ago), and the response dismissed my safety concerns, stating that the crossings are designed according to the guidelines. I shall be requesting a copy of those guidelines next!

    Posted 13 years ago #

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