CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Commuting

RLJ'ing, police and ASLs

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  1. SRD
    Moderator

    Missed this blog post on Friday, and haven't had time to read all the comments, but thought others might like to see it.

    Was back on nursery run this morning after a few weeks off, and had a row with a motorcyclist, who cut in front of me about 5 feet before an ASL, then indicated left (I was going straight on and had been dead centre in the lane). I went around him via cycle lane, and then told him that he (a) shouldn't have cut me off and (b) shouldn't be in the ASL (I would not normally complain about this to a motorcyclist, but he'd annoyed me). He had the gall to tell me that 'like all cyclists' I didn't know the Highway Code! I pointed out that he'd crossed a stop line and that the highway code specifically provides for cyclists to enter the ASL but not motorcyclists. He was not best pleased. Wish I could have remembered which section to cite at him.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  2. Kim
    Member

    It come back to the question why is it we (as a society) find the death rate caused by drivers acceptable? Maybe there are some sociologists out there who could answer this question.

    To me as a scientist, I can see no logic in it, we all know that badly driven motor vehicles are very dangerous but there is huge resistance to doing anything about it, Why?

    Posted 14 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    "Why?"

    Many reasons - not least the fact that "the motor industry' (even today) is a major employer, and also politicians, still believe in the 'dream' of universal personal freedom.

    Of course that ignores the 'freedom' not to be run over...

    Many politicians at this election seem to be keen on the notion of "fairness". Perhaps they should look at the demographic next time they drive/cycle past a bus queue.

    There is still a quaint belief that 'everyone' wants their own car - ignoring the practicalities of what that would mean!

    Of course politicians also want people (maybe not themselves) to use 'better' public transport - especially if it is "high speed". (Fine if you live in London, Edinburgh or one or two places in between).

    As with most things in the 'real' world, there's not a lot of holistic thinking about transport/health/resources/fairness.

    "Maybe there are some sociologists out there..."

    Posted 14 years ago #
  4. Kim
    Member

    The lack of political will may well have something to do with politicians being more likely to be drivers, and they climb higher they are more likely to be provided with a car and driver (for security reasons).

    Posted 14 years ago #
  5. SRD
    Moderator

    A sociologist who parks his bike near mine says:

    "I have lots of answers but none of them very considered:

    1. Deaths caused by driving tend to be individualised and therefore tolerated or ignored. They are 'the collateral damage of our car-based transportation system' http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/323/7309/402/a
    As individuals both suffer and to blame this is not seen as a sytemic issue. Indeed single car road deaths have been seen as possible suicides in a couple of studies.

    2. Many of the victims are poor: arterial routes cut through estates, poor households are less likely to have cars. There is less likely to be a campaign on the issue as a consequence. Without such a campaign road death numbers tend to remain diasaggregated and are not regarded as a public health issue.

    3. There is a not a lot any government would be willing to do beyond installing traffic calming measures and urging drivers to be more responsible (again individualising the issue). over and above this they would have to encourage people out of their cars by investing in public transport; be more systematic about providing off-road cycle-lanes and pedestrianised areas; and alter attitudes which see driving as an entitlement.

    I don't know of any sociological work on this though there is bound to be some. if not perhaps I'll get round to this at some point in the future"

    Posted 14 years ago #
  6. Kim
    Member

    Sorry SRD, it has been a long day. The three ideas your tame sociologist proposes seem plausible, I am sure there is a paper in this. Might even make a PhD thesis for someone.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  7. LaidBack
    Member

    'the collateral damage of our car-based transportation system'

    Radio reports often call crashes 'bumps and shunts'.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  8. SRD
    Moderator

    Tame? Tame? I had to go out and track him down, threatened him even ('i know where you park your bike')... but you guys always go on about how to 'sociologists say...', and here I go and get a real live one to answer our questions....

    anyway, crucial issue to me seems to be that victims are individualised, while motorists have lobby. a bit like that intersection on Mayfield which is getting lights. didn't someone say that there were far more cyclists hit/injured there, but it is the parents of the kids going to school who got the lights put in.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  9. Kim
    Member

    So SRD, you are suggesting that we need to form a more effective lobby to fight for our rights?

    Do we not need evidence to show the way this has come about and inform us which steps we need to take to change things, or is that my just taking a too scientific approach?

    Posted 14 years ago #
  10. SRD
    Moderator

    We need a lobby that's not perceived as a 'lobby'. Goes back to my breast-feeding analogy. As long as breastfeeding was perceived as being pushed by a bunch of flaky earth mothers, it wasn't particularly effective. But main-streaming it seems to have worked.

    How many 'cyclists' don't belong to any sort of cycling group? 90% or more? presumably pro-cycling policies are in their interests, but they don't feel the need to join/lobby about it. it is not part of their 'constitutive identity' and really it ought not to have to be (certainly most car drivers do not necessarily see themselves as 'motorists').

    There are lots of different pro-cycling groups in Scotland (perhaps too many?), but how many people do they actually 'represent'?

    We don't need just a more effective lobby, but a broader-based one that is not seen as a 'bunch of cranks'. Motorists aided by industry behind them; not sure 'cycle industry' has capacity or interest to emulate this.

    Spokes is the best known group here, I think, but as we have discussed, does not seem particularly keen on membership recruitment. perhaps it fits its niche well as a narrow focus that allows it to do what it want effectively, but I would argue that we need a 'normalization' campaign that enables casual cyclists to identify as 'cyclists' and be 'casual' members of groups, to create a momentum.

    This seems to be what sustrans/bike belles etc are trying to do, but i suspect it is a long-term project.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    "need to form a more effective lobby"

    Easier said than done.

    Not trying to be defeatist.

    What @SRD says makes sense

    BUT

    I think the essential problem (assuming we are referring back to @Kim's question "why is it we (as a society) find the death rate caused by drivers acceptable?" is that it needs much more than a more effective 'cycle lobby'.

    There are many groups looking out for 'cyclists', even more for 'motorists', pedestrians and bus users are less well served. People who just want to get around safely/conveniently and be able to let their kids out (etc.) don't have such an easily identifiable 'lobby focus'.

    What 'we' are talking about is much more than 'cycling'. It's political - even Political.

    At election times such issues 'ought' to be prominent. The reality is we have competing groups of people wanting 'to be in power' (for whatever reason) and are primarily concerned with (because that's what they believe the voters are too) "the economy", jobs, growth etc. i.e. more of the same (+ more).

    Putting cost benefit figures on safety, pleasant environments, work/life balances etc. is difficult and largely ignored.

    Whether politics/politicians reflect what people/voters want (or vice versa) is an open question.

    Some people join political parties - most don't. Some people join pressure/lobby/common interest groups.

    @SRD - "but I would argue that we need a 'normalization' campaign that enables casual cyclists to identify as 'cyclists' and be 'casual' members of groups, to create a momentum.

    This seems to be what sustrans/bike belles etc are trying to do, but i suspect it is a long-term project."

    Both Spokes and Sustrans have been around for more than 30 years. Both have made a difference. In the meantime (for instance) Copenhagen has got on encouraging cycling gradually and subtle. Basically the council tried a few things, found that they worked - more people cycled - so did some more.

    In the same time Edinburgh has seen the creation and abolition of Lothian Regional Council (which created most of the off road network - particularly in North Edinburgh) and other changes from Edinburgh Corporation to Ediinburgh District Council to City of Edinburgh Council. Several changes of controlling parties. Many changes of political leadership both at the top and of 'transport'. (In addition creation of Scottish Parliament and political changes there.)

    Few of the politicians took a great interest in cycling - most saw it as a 'lobby' which had to be 'balanced' with other interests.

    NOW there are at least a lot more people on bikes (mostly unattached to any group).

    It's not all the council's fault/responsibility BUT just some of the things that have been highlighted on here in recent weeks - George IV Bridge, Meadow Place, red surfacing (notably Marchmont Road) show that the message isn't getting through that Edinburgh is supposed to want to become a 'model cycling city'.

    (Then there's whole issue of Cycle Training - particularly for all children in schools)

    It's not a new problem http://cyclingedinburgh.info/2008/03/05/how-model-cycle-friendly-edinburgh-really-works

    Starting a new organisation (just for cycling people) is not sensible (in my opinion). Becoming actively involved in Spokes might be an option for some.

    Joining Living Streets, Sustrans, transform scotland etc. and/or a political party - and trying to get them to work together more might be useful.

    Individually there are things that can be done - writing to councillors/MPs etc. can have an impact - but even being lobbied by lots of people won't result in instant changes.

    It will be interesting to see (after the current election) how much the rules on 'professional lobbying' are tightened up. There can be no doubt that a lot of influence is wielded by companies (and larger charities) with money.

    If you don't join things/write letters, just cycle more, persuade/help your friends/relatives to try it too. (Some of them may be so appalled at what they find that they kick up a fuss!)

    Posted 14 years ago #
  12. SRD
    Moderator

    I firmly believe that most people don't want to join groups, lobby etc. Few people get involved in campaigns about (eg) deaths in traffic, deaths from guns, funding for cancer research unless/until they've been personally affected. Activists need to realize that most people don't want to be activists - they just want things to work! (this seems to be at risk of becoming a diatribe against Cameron's big society, but is actually derived from my research in Africa!)

    I quite agree that there is no need for 'new' group, but need for existing groups to (somehow) be perceived as representing wide spectrum of public and/or for people to feel that 'they' speak for 'them' even if they're not members/activists.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "I firmly believe that most people don't want to join groups, lobby etc."

    Agreed.

    "need for existing groups to (somehow) be perceived as representing wide spectrum of public and/or for people to feel that 'they' speak for 'them' even if they're not members/activists"

    My italics for last bit - THAT's what political parties do. Effectively in many ways.

    "diatribe against Cameron's big society" - well one 'problem' with it, as you say - "Activists need to realize that most people don't want to be activists - they just want things to work! "

    !!!!

    Posted 14 years ago #
  14. Kim
    Member

    @SRD From a cycling point of view you are quite correct -

    "We don't need just a more effective lobby, but a broader-based one that is not seen as a 'bunch of cranks'. Motorists aided by industry behind them; not sure 'cycle industry' has capacity or interest to emulate this."

    But as Chris points out my question was "why is it we (as a society) find the death rate caused by drivers acceptable?" This is a broader issue. Just about everyone in the country knows (has known) someone who has been killed or seriously injured in a crash involving a motor vehicle and lets face it over 85% (I can't remember the exact figure) of these crashes are directly cause by driver error. You aren't allowed to carry a loaded shotgun down a street, but you can drive, a car can kill just as effectively as a shotgun. Yet this is seen as acceptable. Why?

    Posted 14 years ago #
  15. Because killing with a shotgun would be, in most cases, a deliberate act, whereas in the majority of cases killing with a car is not deliberate?

    Not defending it, or saying I accept the numbers killed by cars as a 'consequence we have to put up with', just that deaths from those two sources are from a fundamentally different background.

    My personal take is that driving, and the ability to convey yourself by car, is now seen as some sort of 'right', and rights should not be fettered. Mention deaths by cars and there will be an almost immediate riposte of, well how would we get about?

    Posted 14 years ago #
  16. SRD
    Moderator

    Sorry. you're right. I got off topic. Most campaigns around motoring danger seem to focus on local level 'this is a dangerous road'.

    Isn't there data that car fatalities have reduced massively as car engineering improved (although for those in cars, not for those outside).

    More powerful, I think, most people 'think' they know the rules of the road and that they drive safely. It's not me, it's the other guy. I can take a risk and drive faster than the limit here etc etc. So even when there are national campaigns about unsafe driving people think it doesn't apply to them.

    I'm in favour of regular and compulsory re-testing, but that's not going to win any votes.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    "You aren't allowed to carry a loaded shotgun down a street, but you can drive, a car can kill just as effectively as a shotgun."

    Perhaps one problem is that the UK is between the US and Europe.

    We don't have American gun laws and we don't have European attitudes to cars.

    Here people expect to be able to use them when/where/how they want - without "restrictions on my freedom".

    Motorists are a minority - but not persecuted!

    Posted 14 years ago #
  18. Kim
    Member

    There are simple things which could be done such as enforcing the speed limits would help. Hit by a car at 30 mph, 20% of pedestrians will be killed – 80% will survive, at 35 mph 50% die and 40 mph 90% die. So why is it the police won't charge a driver unless they are driving at over 40 mph in a 30 mph limit?

    Posted 14 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    "So why is it the police won't charge a driver unless they are driving at over 40 mph in a 30 mph limit?"

    Don't think that's universally true.

    The whole business of enforcement DOES need debate.

    CEC (and presumably other councils) are reluctant to introduce some measures (not just speed limits) because they know the police would not be willing/able to enforce.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    "We need a lobby that's not perceived as a 'lobby'. Goes back to my breast-feeding analogy. As long as breastfeeding was perceived as being pushed by a bunch of flaky earth mothers, it wasn't particularly effective. But main-streaming it seems to have worked."

    Yes, but.

    Key is to 'discover' what caused the shift.

    Has there been a gradual increase or was there some significant change - health articles in women's magazines, a TV programme, Health MInister with a mission?

    It's certainly not the case that all mothers do, and (perhaps) the ones who don't actually should even more than those who do - bit like cycling!

    It terms of 'mainstreaming' perhaps cycling needs something like the Jamie Oliver programmes on school dinners.

    Perhaps a variation on The Woman Who Stopped Traffic.

    In addition cycling in all it's forms should be a common sight in general magazines.

    So it's perhaps more about PR than lobbying.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  21. Kim
    Member

    Did Jamie's school dinners really make any great difference?

    Where does lobbying stop and PR start?

    Posted 14 years ago #
  22. SRD
    Moderator

    "Do we not need evidence to show the way this has come about and inform us which steps we need to take to change things, or is that my just taking a too scientific approach?" & "Did Jamie's school dinners really make any great difference?"

    Data helps in the micro stuff, I think, and policy implementation. But I don't think it changes attitudes/awareness on a mass level. Jamie's dinners certainly raised awareness - made it 'politically salient' in ways that had not been accomplished before.

    I don't think this has to be a 'celebrity-led thing' -- another comparison might be the village/town somewhere that went plastic bag free. This seems to have caught the public imagination.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  23. Kim
    Member

    A car free Edinburgh?? Now there is something to aim for LOL

    Posted 14 years ago #
  24. cb
    Member

    Quite an interesting article on the Beeb today:

    Is driving more dangerous than flying through ash?

    ADMIN EDIT

    Started new thread

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=691

    Posted 14 years ago #

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