CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Today's rubbish cycling

(4503 posts)

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  1. PS
    Member

    I use that middle lane to go down Broughton St too. Led to me being beeped by a bus because I was at the front of the lane and not moving because the queue for the Broughton St lights was backed up to the roundabout and it's a box junction. The bus was behind me and obviously wanted me out of the way.

    I turned round and gave him a big shrug of the shoulders, pointing at the queue and the box junction markings, but with a wave of the hand busdriverman seemed to suggest I should just jump the queue.

    As it was, the lights changed and a taxidriverman who was on the roundabout and observing the box junction waved me through ahead of him.

    I'm pretty sure I was in the right and that busdriverdude should probably have been in the right hand lane if he wanted to go down Leith Walk, but I guess that would involve changing lanes straight after the bus stops at John Lewis?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  2. CJC
    Member

    @algo @PS yes, that lane is for Broughton street and for straight on. However, the cyclist filtered up the right hand lane and cut in front of the bus.

    He should have waited behind the bus (or filtered on the left, if he really had to).

    Posted 9 years ago #

  3. algo
    Member

    @CJC - ok then I see that's a bit daft, but having filtered there in rush hour it's pretty difficult to get right - I prefer to filter on the right if the traffic's busy and I'm going to filter at all. I have been left in no man's land a few times at junctions - especially in situations such as PS mentions when a bus leaves the bus-stop just as you're filtering past.

    I don't doubt your account at all and I'm sure you're right, but I can totally envisage myself at that position gesticulating hopefully and in as friendly a manner as possible to the bus driver to let me go in front!

    Posted 9 years ago #

  4. Lizzie
    Member

    I can see this is going to be a huge problem with the redesign of the junction at the foot of Leith Walk.
    The cycle lane stops then there is a bus stop then there are a selection of lanes for the junction with no help for cyclists (not even sure if there will be an ASL - not that I think these are fantastic).
    So just where you need some help most, the cycle lane will stop buses will be pulling over left then swinging out to the right hand lane, cars will be swinging in around buses to go left. It will be hugely difficult for cyclists, even if there is a 20mph limit.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  5. paddyirish
    Member

    My crossing of the bridge was bookended by two bits of rubbish cycling. Heading south I came across someone who was in a very low gear and wobbling over the path. I though fair enough maybe they're struggling, I'll wait behind give them space and get past when we get onto the bridge proper. Turned out to be a kid playing with his smartphone.

    On the South side was following the normal lane about 1 foot to the RHS of the central line and as I approached the dogleg came across a "cyclist" following the racing line through the dogleg. He saw me but continued straight at me and I had to take smartish evasive action and move into the pedestrian lane.
    Obviously a "Strava First- s0d everyone else [epithet]*"

    *© wingpig

    Posted 9 years ago #

  6. wingpig
    Member

    My particular recent [epithet] is perhaps too strong a term for a Straver, even a very rude one.

    This morning's York-Place-avoider went onto the footway rather than through the tram stop, but they still didn't save any time. Whilst doing so is currently illegal, it's a nice wide footway, it's not hampered by bus stops and it could be widened even more (the divided with a split-level effect and a segregated grade-separated cyclepath between footway and roadway) if the stupid hatched bit next to the central reservation was junked, as it's currently only used by impatient turnips trying to overtake to get to the next red light more quickly.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  7. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Gent on a powder blue disc-braked, dropped bar Genesis thing with 1 x red pannier on Meadow Place Road this morning, Police motorcycle was coming down the road behind him rather fast and quite incredibly instead of pulling in to the left, he kept going and moved over to the right and proceeded to cycle down the gutter on the wrong side of the road, right up to a car coming the other way (which then had to move into the middle of the road depsite the oncoming police bike) to avoid him.

    I thought at first he may have been panicked and made a poor decision, however he then bumped onto the pavement at Corstorphine Police station and carried on along the pavement, across the pedestrian crossings at Tesco and then along the pavement to the road that leads to Gylemuir School. It seems more likely he was using the approach of the lights and sirens as a way to do a maneouver that saved him a few seconds that would otherwise not have been possible.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  8. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I'm genuinely confused.

    Tonight at about 6.40 tonight, heading from Geirge IV onto Bristo Place a cyclist with helmet, viz and lights, runs a red. I go past him on Potterow, only for him to jump the lights at the roadworks on Buccleuch Street. He's stopped at the next lights by the Meadows, so I state, "Stopping at this one are you?"

    The exchange that follows basically has him pointing out jumping these particular lights would be suicidal, and that on the others he could see the way is clear.

    I point out that he still shouldn't jump them, and that as a cycle campaigner it's one thing that people always bring up, that cyclists jump red lights and that it's used against us.

    He tells me it's a 'misconception'. Now I don't know if the misconception is that he should stop at the lights (which he'd clearly be wrong about), or that people complain to cycle campaigners about it (which, again, he'd be wrong about). I presume the misconception is that it's dangerous, but I'd never actually pointed out that that was the case.

    We parted.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  9. Lizzie
    Member

    guess the problem is that even if you think the junction is clear it may not be. And if cyclists make those assumptions we could only expect drivers to make them too. Which is where the real danger lies. A cyclists ignoring red lights really only endangers the cyclist. A driver ignoring red lights endangers others.
    Really is best to show an example, not just to other cyclists but to drivers too.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  10. Kenny
    Member

    He tells me it's a 'misconception'.

    This, despite the fact he's just been caught doing it? Bizarre. I had a guy RLJ in front of me at a pedestrian crossing yesterday in front of a car, and I could only shake my head in an attempt to persuade the driver that we're not all like that.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  11. wishicouldgofaster
    Member

    In some ways it is a misconception though - if one cyclist jumps a red light then the perception is that all do. If however 100 cars jump a red light then it's an individual at fault and not the whole car driver population.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  12. Kenny
    Member

    Cars do it differently too. They try to sneak through just as the lights are turning red. Bikes just blaze through long after the lights go red. I know which I find more annoying, as is likely apparent from my wording.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  13. Charlethepar
    Member

    @Kenny

    Most of the cyclist RLJing I see is in anticipation of red turning to green. This is either to get ahead of trafic, turn right before the oncoming trafic or to turn left when safe to do so, such as onto a road with bus lanes.

    These behaviours are clearly much much less dangerous than a tonne of metal screaming through lights 2 seconds after they turn red.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  14. Kenny
    Member

    What you see and what I see differs, tbh.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  15. geordiefatbloke
    Member

    @Charlethepar I'm with Kenny on this, the bikes I usually see RLJing are blatantly just ignoring the lights

    @Lizzie "A cyclists ignoring red lights really only endangers the cyclist. A driver ignoring red lights endangers others." - I disagree, a cyclist ignoring a red light endangers anyone else vulnerable to being hit by a bike being somewhere it shouldn't be, e.g. another cyclist, a pedestrian etc. A good example for "well it was safe to do so" RLJumpers is a jogger ... i.e. someone fast moving who may well be out of sight when the cyclist decides to RLJ, but who could quite easily be on the road by the time the manoeuvre actually takes place.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  16. mgj
    Member

    A RLJ cyclist may also encourage a dozy driver behind to follow them.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  17. Kenny
    Member

    I've a bit more time now to expand on my previous comment.

    From my experience, the most typical type of RLJ for each of a bike and a car are as follows:

    Car: trying to nip through before the lights turn red, they mistime it and go through red a fraction of a second after it's gone red.

    Bike: they stop at the red light and wait for the pedestrian to cross. Once the ped is out of the way (say 2 secs after light went red, ~3 secs before it goes amber), they start cycling.

    I'm not saying the car is "more right" or "less wrong", but the RLJ from the bike in the above 2 scenarios annoys me significantly more as my perception is that the car driver thought they could make it through, and the timing of traffic lights is such that someone going through a red light 0.2 seconds after it goes red is unlikely to hit vehicles starting to move since they now have amber. Again, not defending it, just trying to rationalize it (to myself).

    a tonne of metal screaming through lights 2 seconds after they turn red

    As for this, I think I've seen that maybe once in my life. 2 seconds is a HUGE amount of time in such a scenario and is pretty much guaranteed to cause a significant accident. This is not a typical scenario, from my experience, and I don't think it's fair to compare since it happens so rarely and is so unbelievably dangerous.

    Again, YMMV. These are merely my opinions and perceptions.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  18. ARobComp
    Member

    I've started refusing to be a RLJ apologist. I don't do it. IT doesn't kill anyone (statistically speaking) but it is a nuisance. However I refuse to be drawn into discussions about it ususally just saying "they sound like an idiot" and leaving it at that. If people push or start with the "yeah I know it's not everyone" I'll tell them everything a car did wrong that morning during my commute. Seems to work reasonably well without coming across as flippant.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  19. Kenny
    Member

    I like your tactics there, @ARobComp, incidentally.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  20. Kenny
    Member

    Well that's odd. I posted the above two comments the other way around from how they are appearing! (edited) Oh now this is weird, this is appearing in the middle... am I dreaming this?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  21. Kenny
    Member

    I also refuse to berate cyclists when they do it in front of me. I used to, but it's pointless. In fairness, what do I expect them to do? Turn round and apologise and say they won't do it again? Instead I just get abuse, verbal and sometimes threats of physical, so it's not worth it.

    I have yet to think of a tactic better than silently shaking my head, and even then, I'm probably shaking it so minorly it is probably imperceivable to anyone.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  22. chrisfl
    Member

    @Kenny - looks like one of the servers had drifted out of time (about 45 seconds). This would have caused things to go out of order.

    Time sync restarted and hopefully this won't happen again....

    Posted 9 years ago #

  23. stredin
    Member

    "Car: trying to nip through before the lights turn red, they mistime it and go through red a fraction of a second after it's gone red."

    Hmm, yes that is one type of car RLJ but in a number of cases it's not a misjudgement. I regularly see cars piling through a junction, from behind the stop line, when lights are already red. Particularly prevalent at congested junctions when they're just desperate to get through, most commonly when queued for right turns. I see it every morning at the junction of North Bridge and Princes Street, for example.

    I don't like or condone RLJing by cyclists but I also think that it's quite a stretch, in most cases, to say it's a danger to others.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  24. Instography
    Member

    Surely the only thing dafter than cyclists being held responsible for other cyclists is cyclists taking responsibility for them. All this berating and nothing-to-do-with-me head shaking is just two sides of the same coin. Somehow we need to to take responsibility. Nah. If they want to ride like numpties they're on their own.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  25. Kenny
    Member

    If they want to ride like numpties they're on their own

    Much as I want to agree, unfortunately I don't feel like they are on their own. Instead, I feel like their actions makes car drivers have less respect for cyclists, which manifests into them giving me less room when driving past me.

    one of the servers had drifted out of time

    Phew; at least I'm not going mad!

    Posted 9 years ago #

  26. Instography
    Member

    Exactly. You take responsible for them. It's like thinking it reasonable if all muslims have to apologise for Charlie Hebdo.

    Those drivers aren't too close because they are also numpties, they're too close because of some unknown cyclist somewhere. It's not the drivers' fault, it's the cyclist. Bloody cyclists.

    Let each be their own numpty.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  27. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I can see where you're coming from Insto, but I think there's a world of difference between believing all Muslims are responsible for Charlie and complaining directly to a cyclist who has just jumped two lights with drivers around you etc etc. it's a kind of 'immediate' thing and (certainly in this case) was linked to the comment about campaigning about cycling and his type of actions making that campaigning more difficult (which is a statement of fact, even if the reaction that brings it about is based on a misconception that all cyclists do it).

    It's complaining to the person who is actually doing the wrong, so your Muslim analogy would be correct if you were telling the actual terrorists that they were making life harder for other Muslims. Your analogy works for DRIVERS thinking we all have to apologise for other cyclists.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  28. Instography
    Member

    You lost me there. Who believes all muslims are responsible for Charlie?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  29. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Apologies, substitute "are responsible for" with "have to apologise for". Got the terminology correct later in the post.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  30. Instography
    Member

    OK but I didn't say they have to. I said "thinking it reasonable that". But in any case I don't think there is a world of difference. In each case someone unconnected with the incident is taking it upon themselves to take responsibility for something someone else, with only a tenuous, circumstantial connection, did. They do that either by berating the wrongdoer directly or by ostentatiously "apologising" and differentiating themselves. Not in my name. No, I'm with you driver guys behind the stop line, waiting on green, not him.

    Don't get me wrong, I've done both. But I think we should refuse to. It doesn't make campaigning more difficult. I'd suggest that saddling yourself with the burden of every other cyclists' bad behaviour hampers campaigning because you start on the back foot, you've handed your opponent a hurdle to make you jump over. You first have to convince them that you're not one of those cyclists. You have to win the argument that these people are not typical, not part of us, before you get on to dealing with the problem.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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