CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Today's rubbish cycling

(4502 posts)

  1. chdot
    Admin

  2. neddie
    Member

    “I’m not anti-cyclist but…”

    Posted 6 months ago #
  3. gembo
    Member

    At Balerno farmers market this morning, good to see loads of cyclists arriving via the WoL path cycling super highway I told the local councillor after many remarks he made of an anti cyclist nature (he has cycled from Edinburgh to Paris many times) that he should take up with mad Sue Weber. He seemed to agree that she was her own woman but said he wasn’t anti cyclist.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  4. Frenchy
    Member

    “I’m not anti-cyclist but…”

    I'm not completely sure that I'd manage to avoid saying this if I were in her situation.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  5. gembo
    Member

    I don’t like to tead Edinburgh live but yes the woman was on pavement and using a crutch and the cyclists were for no good reason at all cycling on the pavement. Even if they were kids? Hamilton Place wise and flat

    Posted 6 months ago #
  6. Yodhrin
    Member

    Not excusing them as their attitude was trash and that pavement really isn't wide or quiet enough to cycle on regardless of conditions, but in what reality is Hamilton Place flat? It's riddled with potholes and boneshaking agglomerations of "repairs" that make me want to weave around to avoid them even with a suspension seatpost, and there are frequent <rule2>s close-passing there.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  7. neddie
    Member

    Would Edinburgh Live have written a similar article about the angry aggressive coach driver who tooted and frightened the pedestrians out of the way while they were crossing at the Tron junction? Some of which may have had hidden disabilities and needed extra time to cross?

    Or the story about the angry taxi driver who revved his engine and tailgated me in a threatening way, while I was carrying out charity work?

    Nah, thought not. Cos they only write pure cyclist-hating clickbait bile

    Posted 6 months ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    Might if you complained and provided the video…

    Posted 6 months ago #
  9. fimm
    Member

    I'm on the front seat of the upper deck of a bus going west along the A199 approaching the junction where the A199 goes left as Milton Road East and the coast road continues straight on towards Portobello. The road here splits into two car lanes with a bike lane between then which provides access to the ASL if you want to cycle towards Portobello. There's no bike lane for cyclists going left.

    In front of the bus there are two cyclists. The first cyclist signals right and moves out into the bike lane. They both cycle along the bike lane, and then the lead cyclist signals left and they both turn left and go up Milton Road East.

    Why on earth would you do that? My only guess is that they believe that if there is a bike lane they must use it even if it doesn't go where they want to go...

    Posted 6 months ago #
  10. Yodhrin
    Member

    Not so much today's as the past couple weeks or so, but I confess 'twas myself. Been riding out to the Royal Infirmary to visit my grandad, and on the way back through town I found myself with zero patience for the tourist-lemmings. Split paths, shared paths, bike lanes, traffic lights with red men, it seems there is no circumstance in which some tanned twonk or gaggle of rubberneckers won't gormlessly wander out into your path and then calmly stand there emptily staring at you while you try to brake or evade other traffic without getting mulched. Several times I've given in to frustration and become one of those shouty-sweary gits who berates them, even knowing half probably can't understand what I'm on about.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  11. jonty
    Member

    @Fimm: I think at busy times that junction coming from that direction is one of the ones that is unusually awful to the inexperienced - I think I remember the first time I did it doing one of those emergency 'commit to whatever direction you find yourself going, get out of there and then pull over when you can and figure out to get to where you actually want go' moments. (I was probably aiming for Portobello but only realised I need to do a fairly hefty merge right at the last minute.)

    FWIW the bike lane goes to an ASL which covers the whole road, so is presumably intended to enable filtering for either direction. It looks fairly inviting, especially if you find the back of a queue, and it is not necessarily obvious that if you find yourself in moving traffic you might end up with difficulty trying to merge into rapidly quickening left-turning traffic. In any case there is a lot of room - physically and metaphorically - for improvement here.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  12. Frenchy
    Member

    Cycling south on South Bridge, I approached a bus waiting to pull into a bus stop. I was thinking about overtaking, and was judging whether it was safe with the oncoming traffic.

    Decided it was and then did a shoulder check, which revealed that the Zoomo cyclist behind me had decided that it was safe to overtake both me and the bus, despite the oncoming traffic.

    They'd be pretty sore right now if neither I or the oncoming van driver had stopped.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  13. edinburgh87
    Member

    @Frenchy - I could write a book on the bad riding I see from such riders. Seem to be an increase in clearly clocked / illegal e-bikes too (e.g. regularly cycling along Salamander St or Lothian Rd at ca. 18mph and passed by someone doing ca. 25mph on the flat without pedalling, on what look like folders (small wheels) but clearly electric.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  14. Arellcat
    Moderator

    @edinburgh87, a lot of these Zoomo (et al) riders have no real sense of vehicular, effective, considerate cycling skills. They are just two-wheeled joggers, dressed in lo-viz and rather amiable in their consideration of others on the road or the footway. But I think it goes wider than that. The entire off-brand e-bike market is getting completely out of control. It's conceivable that a government of the day might decide all e-bikes must be classed and sold and operated as motorcycles.

    Last week about 8pm I was cycling through the Straiton car park and at the Sainsbury's end I noticed a 20-something riding, but not pedalling, an unlit and rather hard to see gnarly black e-bike. He was really moving, I guessed 20 or 25mph. As he headed towards the McDonalds end he pulled a (rather good) wheelie and carried on at high speed. Then he caught up the driver of a big black VW/Audi estate car and decided to overtake, still wheelieing. Just then, driver started to turn right into one of the car park bits, and very nearly sent the rider flying.

    There then ensued some sort of argy-bargy from the rider, who probably thought it was the driver's fault. The driver moved on, the rider moved to match and carried on shouting but eventually scarpered, probably to terrify some other drivers.

    I was still at the other end of the car park and rode back along to see if the driver was alright. He seemed pretty philosophical about the whole thing but we shared a few moments of incredulity.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  15. mcairney
    Member

    e-bikes are a game-changer in terms of getting people who otherwise wouldn't onto bikes but I reckon much of the 'bad press' cyclists get are from delivery e-bikers.
    If there was a way to distance your Zoomo-riding deliverloonies from your standard commuting/sports cyclists I'm all for it.

    Also I get that your gig economy e-cyclist isn't going to spend £200 on a bike fit but why do they all ride with their saddles at their lowest level and (when they do actually pedal) knees round their ears? Can't be comfortable for a 4hr shift.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  16. SRD
    Moderator

    they remind me of the delivery motorbikes on Cairo. they used these little skinny lightweight bikes and zoomed around pedestrians including over pedestrian overpasses etc. we used to call them 'death wish bikers'. at least the Cairo ones aren't all black.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  17. Jester
    Member

    In my opinion, the Deliveroo/Just Eat/Insert Name Here food courier "cyclists" are the most visible sub-group within cyclists in the city, and are the ones whose behaviour is most frequently quoted when "Angry Driver" types are complaining about cyclists in general. They are, in effect, the "white van man" of the cycling world.

    Their behaviour undoes every bit of good work done to promote cycling, and I get a bit tired of some of those online who defend crap cycling, simply because it's cycling.

    Many of the Food Delivery Cycle Group who I have seen are on illegally modified ebikes, given away by the loose wires and black tape which make it look as though they are transporting a badly made car bomb. These are then classed as illegal and unlicenced motorbikes, but to the average pedestrian or motorist, all they see is a guy on a bike, cycling dangerously.

    These bikes aren't hard to spot and given that they tend to congregate around fast food retailers, they aren't hard to track down. The question must be, why aren't Police Scotland doing anything about it in Edinburgh, as they did in Glasgow a few months back?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  18. Arellcat
    Moderator

    My FOI fingers are twitching at the prospect of spoiling someone's day at Police Scotland.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  19. edinburgh87
    Member

    @Jester / Arrelcat / McA - can’t disagree with anything you say. The whole thing is an exploitative disgrace really and I’m amazed there’s not more of a duty of care or vicarious liability on the “platforms” (who insert themselves in the sales process in the name of convenience and rip off both the consumer and restaurant) as regards riders’ behaviour and safety. Saw one nearly get T-boned at Tollcross about an hour ago on ride home from work, only a matter of time I sometimes feel.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  20. Jester
    Member

    @Edinburgh87
    I'm not a big consumer of takeaway food, but on principle I refuse to order anything via those third party companies.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  21. the canuck
    Member

    I suspect, but have no proof, that many of these riders are in a position of desperation. They don't know much about cycling (hence the low seats), or about road law, don't have a lot of confidence (hence riding on the sidewalk) and are under enormous pressure to deliver in a tight time frame.
    I have heard rumours of a few ending up in Home Office trouble because they didn't have the right documentation--but if this were a common thread, I'm sure Braverman would be releasing all sorts of funds for a police crackdown!

    So I have some empathy for them, but they still irritate me and yes--the 'white van driver' analogy holds.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  22. SRD
    Moderator

    Saw the aftermath of a collision between a deliveroo 'cyclist' and random pedestrian outside the omni centre today.

    Those lanes really are dire for pedestrian interaction, especially when lots of people crossing from John Lewis/whatever the monstrosity is called, and even worse when crowds coming out / going into the theatre.

    The bike racks are on a narrow strip between the bike lane and traffic and we kept almost unintentionally stepping into the lane while trying to lock up our bikes.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  23. jonty
    Member

    I saw a fairly innocuous bit of delivery cyclist 'misbehaviour' the other day, coming down the tram tracks from St Andrew Square to turn left on to Princes Street. This is of course technically forbidden by signs but loads of people do it and it's probably fine. But what surprised me was the fact that, to do it, he mounted the pavement, cut the corner, then re-entered the road. Why? The road was clear, although it might not have been by the time he re-merged back on to it, which could have slowed him down. He almost certainly had to slow and stop for pedestrians, it's a busy pavement. And it didn't prevent him from crossing the tram tracks.

    I formed a vague theory that there's maybe some myth that you'll get in less trouble for being on the pavement than actively breaking road laws, but I don't really buy it. It's the weirdness of delivery cyclist misbehaviour that I think is the most noticeable thing. It's usually fairly easy to predict what road users might do as it's more or less what you'd do yourself (perhaps sometimes with a little less respect for the law, or other road users, or to the principle that you should look where you're going.) You can understand what they might be trying to achieve, and how they might do it as simply/quickly as possible.

    But it sometimes seems like delivery cyclist behaviour is genuinely random - you think either they'll stop at the red light or they won't, but instead they swerve across two lanes of opposing traffic and mount the pavement - and often I can't understand why, even in retrospect. Half the time it seems less convenient and slower than the best alternative!

    It probably points to inexperience, sure - but does this inexperience 'bake in', or are we just seeing a conveyor belt of 'first weeks' after which cyclists disappear off the apps to be replaced, or wisen up and blend in?

    I do generally agree that, for their own safety if nothing else, delivery companies should be responsible for providing or at least verifying that their riders have received some kind of training. It might be easier to achieve this in a roundabout fashion by making the companies directly liable for any infractions committed by a driver or cyclist operating on their behalf.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  24. neddie
    Member

    It feels like we’re winning seeing these semi chaotic delivery riders all about. Some with lights, some without, most without helmets or hi viz. I kinda like the chaoticness, it feels like the city’s becoming civilised in a freeform artistic way, free from the motoring shackles of strict lane and signal discipline. And there’s the rub, strict discipline simply isn’t required on a bicycle, it’s required because of heavy and dangerous machinery.

    And plus, it keeps drivers on their toes, when they don’t know what to expect - certainly when I’m riding about the city at night, which I often do, the traffic is mostly private hires, who are VERY cautious around bikes. This surely makes it safer for all.

    So let’s see through the motor indoctrination and look to what the city should really look like. [Rule 2] your strict discipline, motor heids

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  25. gembo
    Member

    My line at that junction is right lane over all the many tram tracks into a narrow strip of tarmac next to the centre kerb. Then once the coast is clear down through the planters towards the station, avoiding all the tourists standing on the road.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  26. jonty
    Member

    > It feels like we’re winning seeing these semi chaotic delivery riders all about.

    Chaos was definitely the word that came to kind writing that. I wonder if the reason it seems to bother us especially as cyclists is that it seems so particularly chaotic to us, like trying to play a game with a child who won't follow the rules.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  27. the canuck
    Member

    Yeah, I don't mind watching chaos when I'm safe on the bus, but to be honest, when I'm cycling down a hill fast-ish in the dark-ish, I don't want to worry that drifting to the left will smash me into someone who is embracing their own path.

    I always cut across the kerb to go left onto Princes St at that junction, because if I stay in the road it's a very tight turn, and it's easier to thread through walkers and get into that delivery bay--then look for oncoming motors, rather than trying to watch out for them at the foot of the street while also watching out for pedestrians.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  28. mcairney
    Member

    I’m not sure I agree with the statement “ And there’s the rub, strict discipline simply isn’t required on a bicycle, it’s required because of heavy and dangerous machinery” if I’m honest. Although the stakes are lower it’s a matter of courtesy and safety to walk/cycle/hop etc in a way that’s consistent and predictable when using any shared space, and to do otherwise is an act of selfishness and entitlement.

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  29. edinburgh87
    Member

    I’m not sure I agree with the statement “ And there’s the rub, strict discipline simply isn’t required on a bicycle, it’s required because of heavy and dangerous machinery” if I’m honest. Although the stakes are lower it’s a matter of courtesy and safety to walk/cycle/hop etc in a way that’s consistent and predictable when using any shared space, and to do otherwise is an act of selfishness and entitlement.

    What he said ^

    Posted 2 weeks ago #
  30. neddie
    Member

    There is no strict discipline at the 5-ways junction of Middle Meadow Walk and North Meadow Walk. Bikes pass each other mostly keeping to the left of each other, but not always. Often weaving around pedestrians, keeping a good distance from them. Almost never signalling turns, slowing but almost never fully stopping. And everything mostly works fine, with a once in a blue moon “sorry” required when someone’s path gets diverted more than it should.

    The entitlement and selfishness comes from motorists taking all the space and then expecting everyone else to abide by their rules regardless of whether they’re carrying a motor, 2 tonnes of steel and glass, 4 tyres, 70litres wet storage, 4 empty seats, and a hifi around with them or not.

    Just shows how normalised and indoctrinated even people who ride bikes have become that they actually believe this stuff

    Posted 2 weeks ago #

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