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Do we need an Indyref2 thread?

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "I had hoped that given their almost absolute power in Scotland following the last election, that the SNP would use this wisely to take steps towards the "fairer" society they purport to believe in"

    I think "almost absolute power" is overstating it, not just in an 'it's all Westminster's fault' sense.

    Most politicians over-imagine what they could do, 'if only'...

    Even Donald Trump is finding out about laws and opposition - though he (or is that Bannon?) has plans.

    But yes, the SNP has failed on much of its CleanerGreenerWiser rhetoric.

    Much is being made of the fear that (in the UK), because of the state of Labour, there will be a Tory Gov for the foreseeable future.

    At the last IndyRef at lot of ideas/vision/optimism/inspiration came from non-SNP Yessers inc the Greens and 'conventional' Left groups - but also non (Party) aligned groupings and individuals.

    It will be interesting to see how that develops this time (there will be IndyRef2).

    Last time there were suggestions that the SNP would 'disappear' (or split into two) because its main/only aim would have been achieved.

    Much talk of a Labour revival/restoration to its 'true' status as Scotland's main party.

    Some talk of a Scottish Conservative revival - easily dismissed of course...

    Various thoughts about a green/left/liberal concencus.

    IF there is a Yes in two years time, maybe even more will have changed than in the past two years.

    Change is inevitable, most of it happens not because of 'Politics'.

    Truly "interesting times".

    Posted 7 years ago #

  2. PS
    Member

    I'm sure those that knew they were always 'yes' or 'no' last time round will be even more entrenched.

    I was a strong 'No' last time; now I'm a soft 'Yes'.

    An important factor in my position then was the extreme disruption that splitting the UK would involve. Now that we're going to get lots of disruption from exiting the EU anyway, that issue has become a bit moot now.

    I can also see some very significant opportunities in the finance and universities/research/technology sectors of the economy from Scotland staying in the single market while England leaves.

    I am still very angry about Brexit, so I cannot deny that poking Leavers in the eye is also a motive.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  3. geordiefatbloke
    Member

    63 of 129 seats in a PR system is about as absolute power as it gets - given any proposal they wanted to get through would require only 2 opposition votes to side with the SNP, I would have liked them to have been a bit more bold. As you say though, reality kicks in, as does the politician's fear of supporting something "unpopular" e.g. tax rises, not spending money on roads, etc

    Posted 7 years ago #

  4. chdot
    Admin

    "John Swinney's Scottish Attainment Challenge and Pupil Equity Fund are both ways of trying to break the link between deprivation and attainment in education. THis is a step towards a fairer society. Both initiatives are of course similar to earlier versions in England."

    Yes, but a long time (that the SNP has been in charge) coming.

    @ gembo perhaps you have a view as to whether the last big idea, Curriculum for Excellence, has been educationally and/or socially beneficial.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  5. chdot
    Admin

    "63 of 129 seats in a PR system is about as absolute power as it gets"

    Within Holyrood/Scotland yes, but I was thinking more of "markets", "events", "Daily Mail headlines". The latter affects what you said -

    "the politician's fear of supporting something "unpopular" "

    "I would have liked them to have been a bit more bold"

    Ditto.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  6. gembo
    Member

    @CHDot, I think John Swinney has been clear on the Cfor E too. He has asked schools to focus on 3 aspects Literacy, Numeracy and Health and Wellbeing. THis is a clear steer as the CfE very broad and as taught at say Moray House virtually equal weighting given to all aspects whereas Swinney clear about the focus on the Big 3. I like Him for this too.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  7. geordiefatbloke
    Member

    @chdot We are all afraid of Daily Mail headlines :)

    Posted 7 years ago #

  8. chdot
    Admin

    @ gembo

    Thanks, that useful/interesting.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  9. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    "He has asked schools to focus on 3 aspects Literacy, Numeracy and Health and Wellbeing. This is a clear steer as the CfE very broad "

    So why introduce the "very broad" CfE in the first place if "back to basics" is the (necessary) steer? Not specifically bashing the SNP as CfE was well in motion even before the SNP took majority power, more a criticism of the functioning of Holyrood as an effective reviewer of and legislature on stuff like this as it doesn't get challenged, even with changes of ruling party.

    Deeply worrying that the outworking of CfE has meant effectively a Scottish postcode lottery on number of National 5s that can be sat by able pupils?? Where is fairer society and focus on attainment in education in that?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  10. crowriver
    Member

    "Deeply worrying that the outworking of CfE has meant effectively a Scottish postcode lottery on number of National 5s that can be sat by able pupils??"

    Indeed.

    A broad education is a Scottish tradition, and A Good Thing too.

    Implementation of CfE at local level rather makes a mockery of this noble aim.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  11. wee folding bike
    Member

    gembo

    Paul Schofield.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  12. gembo
    Member

    Yes weefolding bike I was going to add that as I had dredged up the surname but you pippoed me. Schofield played in the theatre then in the film. Not sure if Hurt was Rich in play too?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  13. gembo
    Member

    @murun buchstansang the breadth depth arguments are not straightforward but as was ever the case the O Grade/ Nat 5 is a harder qualification than the GCSE so a smart kid in England might still sit 10 or 11 GCSEs but a smart kid being accelerated in Scotland might sit highers in S4 (caveat - see below about univerisites needing all five As in one sitting, can be S4, S5 or S6 I guess) rather than more than 7 or 8 nat 5s

    I sat seven o'levels in 1981, which was same as everybody elseat my school, no hothousing of kids smarter than me. Indeed I think give or take the choice between history and geography it was the same 7 o levels that the rest of the swots sat.

    So there is a complete widening of what a big school can course for the Nat5s - drama, music, computing science to name a few I know that seem to have worked well.

    Some places have gone up to 8 and then others are going down to 6. So yes a narrowing might be in the air. However, the range of subjects though is wider than it was 35 years ago.

    Highers are still more broad than A level and with the CfE universities will recognise Higher Photography as the same hardness as Higher Physics (oooh that was hard for me, just scraped it). Some universites want five As at one sitting, to give you an unconditional offer. Look at the recent case of the Inverness lad who took Higher PE (A grade) in S4 and four highers in S5 (four As) and Edinburgh wouldn't offer unconditional. I bet Glasgow have but that will be on the four As in one sitting.

    My view is that Edinburgh does not give Scottish students parity with English students with good A levels (as highers are not seen as carrying as many points due to their breadth meaning less depth) so you need Five As in one sitting to compete for a place on a popular course such as law like the lad in question if you have English students with 3 As at A level.. Edinburgh does however do a good job with students from deprived areas. THey are very good in that respect.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  14. barnton-to-town
    Member

    "their almost absolute power in Scotland following the last election"

    After the last WM election, there is almost 100% sitting SNP MPs. It gives them no power whatsoever.

    After the last Holyrood election, despite gaining 47% of the popular vote, they do not have an outright majority anymore. Thus, and only with the support of the Greens, they have a level of control over devolved matters only.

    Westminster, ie the Tories, with 37% of the UK popular vote (& a paltry 20% in Scotland), have absolute power over everything; including, ultimately, devolved matters.

    This "their almost absolute power in Scotland following the last election" crap seriously gets my goat. It reeks of the "one party state" pish that the unionist parties and most MSM spout about Scotland.

    The SNP is VERY popular in Scotland, but does not have absolute power.
    The Tories are hugely unpopular in Scotland, and effectively have ultimate power.

    If anything is a "one party state" (which is a load of crap in itself, as a one party state is where there is only one party, dictated by the state, available to vote on) it's the UK (and Scotland), as led by the Tories at the moment.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  15. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    @gembo would be interested in hearing more about where you see Highers as being broader than the equivalent A-level subject. Not sure about A-levels being deep as my (25-year ago) experience (so maybe deeper than current day?) was of Physics being heavily Newtonian (photon interference being briefly introduced and just as quickly glossed over in case our little brains melted), Chemistry atomic theory being Bohr and Bohr alone, etc.

    Must confess not impressed by suggestion of subject widening vs 35 or 25 years ago, goes without saying over that timescale, drama & computing were already popular Standard Grades pre-CfE 5-10 years ago. Do you really know of schools that didn't offer Standard Grade Music pre-CfE? I find that hard to believe.

    My basic objection is that 6 National 5s leaves very little choice once English & Maths are taken out of it.

    Agree re Edinburgh Uni - I took direct entry to 2nd year on strength of A levels. Steep learning curve, but it did appear 1st year would be a rehash of stuff already covered at A level.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  16. geordiefatbloke
    Member

    @barnton-to-town the words "in Scotland" appear in my absolute power comment, as does the word "almost", which I think fairly qualifies my original statement, I thus refute your "crap" comment. Do you think the SNP have been bold with the devolved powers they have?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  17. crowriver
    Member

    @Murun, having visited a few secondary schools in Edinburgh over the past few years in the fraught search for a destination for our son (starting high school this August), I can say that:

    1. There is a postcode lottery when it comes to the number of N5 subjects being offered (and Highers also).

    2. As a generalisation, schools with a roll containing higher numbers of pupils from poorer households offer fewer subject choices at N5 and above.

    3. Some schools which were offering 8 subjects are now rethinking and going to 7 or fewer. Reading between the lines this appears to be about staff workload and resources above all.

    4. The system puts bright kids from modest or poorer backgrounds at a distinct disadvantage, IMHO.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  18. barnton-to-town
    Member

    @geordiefatbloke

    The SNP do not have absolute power in Scotland. 'Almost' is irrelevant.
    The SNP last time round did have a majority, but still did not have absolute power, almost or otherwise.
    The SNP currently has to work with another party to deliver (not just their own) policy.
    Absolute power is what the Tories have at Westminster (ably demonstrated by the unelected Lords' capitulation last night), and absolute power is what Westminster holds over Scotland - regardless of who Scotland votes in at any election.
    The oft quoted "one party state" claim (not yours) is crap, as is the claim that the SNP 'almost' (or otherwise) hold absolute power.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  19. geordiefatbloke
    Member

    @barnton-to-town

    I mentioned the fact they needed to work with another party (2 votes I think) to get their stuff through. I don't want to be arsey about this but I repeat, do you think the SNP have been bold with the devolved powers they have? I recall them trying to do something with income tax which they got the greens on board for if I recall correctly? I could well be wrong there though.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    And still another 18 months(+) to go...

    Posted 7 years ago #

  21. Frenchy
    Member

    Some universites want five As at one sitting, to give you an unconditional offer. Look at the recent case of the Inverness lad who took Higher PE (A grade) in S4 and four highers in S5 (four As) and Edinburgh wouldn't offer unconditional. I bet Glasgow have but that will be on the four As in one sitting.

    Whilst being too lazy to actually check, I think there will be far more variation in requirements between particular degrees rather than between universities. i.e., requirements for, say, veterinary medicine are likely to be very similar at Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen (if there's a vet degree at Aberdeen). The requirements will be lower for, say, physics (but still roughly the same at different universities). There will still, obviously, be differences between universities.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  22. geordiefatbloke
    Member

    @chdot I realise that, I'm really not trying to be controversial/antagonistic :) I shall stand down from thread.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  23. crowriver
    Member

    "I shall stand down from thread."

    Please don't. The SNP do need to be held to account, and they have been fairly timid on a range of issues, not least transport.

    I suggest though that is a different matter from debating the pros and cons of independence.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  24. ih
    Member

    " And still another 18 months(+) to go..."

    I can see it being much longer than that! May is putting her foot down and saying that any referendum will have to wait until the UK has actually left the EU. And, Gina Miller (not a politician but she has earned a certain amount of cred on this issue) said in an interview that exiting will be so complex that there will be a 5 to 10 year transition period. Long, long grass here we come.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  25. gembo
    Member

    @Frenchy, you would think so but medics now have their own examine you have to sit after highers to get in.

    Something like I did, e.g. Psychology at Edinburgh will need minimum of 4 As in one sitting and even then probably a conditional offer.

    I think it was 3 Cs back in the day (though that awas Glasgow before Edinburgh).

    Edinburgh most reluctant to give you an unconditional unless you put Scottish before the subject. So History no chance but Scottish history yes undconditional 4 As in one sitting thanks. Glasgow was 4 As in one sitting to do English last year for an unconditonal.

    I am not saying grade inflation, what I am saying is inflation of grades but well done darling those are much better highers than yer old man got.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  26. Rosie
    Member

    I want another indyref like I want oil spillages on the roads. The last one was a horrible bruising experience.

    So I am not going to take part in any discussions/campaigns until about 3 months before an actual vote & will otherwise ignore this for the sake of my anxiety levels.

    However I have one thought. Sturgeon has punted this hoping that May will slap it down. This is a win for Sturgeon - she doesn't have to conduct another referendum which she could very easily lose, and gives her yet another grievance to stoke up nationalism, not to mention throwing a bone to the hardline Yessers, who would be campaigning all year round if they had the chance.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  27. chdot
    Admin

    "

    "I shall stand down from thread."

    Please don't.

    "

    Posted 7 years ago #

  28. Frenchy
    Member

    It's over 10 years since I applied to university, but the entry requirements don't seem to have changed.

    Minimum requirement Highers for the degree I did is: "AABB by end of S5 or AABBB/AAAB from S4-S6, with a minimum of BBB achieved in one year of S4-S6."

    Vet Med has no explicit "one sitting" rule.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  29. chdot
    Admin

    "The SNP do need to be held to account, and they have been fairly timid on a range of issues, not least transport."

    True, and the SNP undoubtedly care more about Independence than cycling.

    Their Indy partners may or may not care more about cycling than Independence. Certainly some Green supporters not keen on Indy and/or Europe.

    And some SNP voters don't have any concerns about Brexit.

    Going to be a long 18 - 60 months!

    Posted 7 years ago #

  30. wee folding bike
    Member

    Pushy parents on the phone can sometimes get round entry requirements.

    Posted 7 years ago #

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