...if you like going around in circles
http://road.cc/content/news/84462-edinburgh-councillors-agree-%C2%A312m-funding-outdoor-velodrome
Apologies if I missed an earlier thread on this.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Sport
1.2m for cycling in Edinburgh (Hunters Hall)
(30 posts)-
Posted 10 years ago #
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Hmmmm good, but.... where's the other 1.2million for making it easier and safer for *everyone* to cycle? :-/
(and any politician claiming there is no cash available will be pointed swiftly at the trambles and MP/MSP's expenses and wage bills!)Posted 10 years ago # -
"Apologies if I missed an earlier thread on this."
Previous story buried in 'Save Meadowbank' thread.
This is just the latest development in a long and sorry saga.
Some background here -
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/search.php?search=Hunters+Hall
Basically Meadowbank is a proper track which has not only suffered from council neglect (over many years) it is also impossible for it to reach its full potential due to the lack of roof.
Regular training sessions and Championship track meetings have often had to be cancelled.
The 'planned' track for HH would be uncovered and without the steep banking normal in modern tracks (like Glasgow).
Some years ago a 'track in a shed' was estimated to cost £3m.
But the bid for the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow put an end to that idea - or at least much chance of funding from conventional 'sport' sources -
"
There have been important developments in regard to the sports facilities planned for Hunters Hall Park. To assist Glasgow's bid to secure the 2014 Commonwealth Games, it is suggested that the indoor velodrome previously proposed for the Park instead should be built in that city. The sporting focus now proposed for Hunters Hall is on football and discussions have been held with Hibernian FC about the club having a long-term connection with the Football Centre.I presume talks with Hibs didn't go anywhere.
In February, Richard Lewis said -
"
While these plans are at a very early stage, our vision is to create a cycling hub which will be accessible all year round by cyclists of all ages and abilities.
"http://road.cc/content/news/76903-sir-chris-hoy-welcomes-plans-new-outdoor-velodrome-edinburgh
The report going to committee on Tuesday says -
"
£1.215million towards a cycling hub at Hunter’s Hall Park, home of the Jack Kane Centre. This could include a closed road loop, a regional track cycling facility and a bmx facility."
"could" - so maybe nothing is decided, or the expected £60k 'feasibility' study will just be a boxticking exercise.
The only certainties are that CEC has £1.2m to spend on capital items for cycle sport. This is a good thing but I am far from convinced that the items listed are the optimum for getting more young people involved in the sport side of cycling.
It would be better if some of this money could be spent on coaching/training - but of course this is stuck in the all too common Government ruling about money being 'capital' or 'revenue' - not 'money'.
It is intended to spend all the money at Hunters Hall, which is a political decision.
If this means that Castlebrae Community High School and the local primaries are actively involved that would be a good thing.
So far the reason for these proposals aren't really much to do with Craigmillar.
One reason is CEC's desire to close the Meadowbank Velodrome. At one time the reason was a hope that the whole site (including the main stadium) could be sold (for lots of money) for housing. A new sports facility would be built at Sighthill.
This didn't happen.
There is also Scottish Cycling's plan for "regional hubs".
ERC wants the 'closed road circuit'
Why should an expensive new facility be cheaper than Ingliston - especially if it is used more - just because it is council owned?
One disadvantage of Ingliston is that it is not always available for hire.
The BMX track is possibly the least likely of the three to be built.
In spite of BMX racing being an Olympic sport there is no BMX track in Edinburgh (or Glasgow). The aspiration is for a 'regional' track even though there are no local/feeder tracks - or clubs/racers.
Of course there used to be a BMX track at HH. There used to be a cycle speedway track too! Some people involved with the Edinburgh Falcons at the Redbraes track would welcome a new track and associated club.
There is a new track in Broxburn and stirrings for tracks connected to schools.
Perhaps some of the £1.2m could be used to create a 'starter' track on the Castlebrae/Castleview Primary 'campus'.
Liberton High School is about to get its own 'pump track' as the latest development for a school that has really embraced cycling.
Then there's Mountain Biking. Already a highly popular sport/leisure activity with plenty of potential for development in the Craigmillar area
Racing already takes place in Craigmillar Country Park. A few years ago CEC commissioned a report on this but never found the cash to implement the recommendations.
Close by, in Inch Park, ERC Juniors do cyclo-cross training. Craigmillar already has an indoor cycle skills facility - Transgression Park.
There is massive potential for cycling in the Craigmillar area - sport, leisure, transport (potential for new links to Midlothian), economic development, tourism, lunchtime leisure activities for ERI and MediPark staff. Might even make the area attractive enough to speed up the redevelopment of Greendykes.
Needs more vision than a questionable concrete bowl and some flat tarmac.
Incidentally there is a brand new bit of tarmac due to open soon between the ERI and Greendykes with only the occasional bus and ambulance to get in the way of a bit of race training!
Posted 10 years ago # -
chdot, the first report is dated 2005 - It certainly might have made sense to make the facility multi purpose, and some private money (hibs) would have helped - however , Hibs ultimately went out and built a self contained training facility in East Mains (nr Tranent) - they would have preferred something 'in town' hence the potential hook up - but seems like it was going to take an age (!!) to get it set up in HH.
Looks like that was / is the case.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Thanks Nelly.
Didn't know the " - but seems like it was going to take an age (!!) to get it set up in HH."
Makes sense...
This time I'm not clear how much it depends on extra money from Sport Scotland.
Though if CEC were more ambitious, plenty other funding sources too.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Or maybe £5m
"
David Hoy and Allister Watson were disappointed that cycling had not been addressed in the report to today’s Council meeting. Cycling was a major sport at Meadowbank which provided every day training facilities for young cyclists and contributed to the development of world-class cyclists. The planned velodrome in Glasgow at a cost of £20-25m would benefit all of Scotland but, if Edinburgh’s track were to close, over 40 years experience and knowledge in the sport and a valuable facility used by kids clubs in the city would be lost. The deputation urged the Council to think about the implications of their decision and to consider the retention of a training velodrome in Edinburgh at a modest estimated cost of £5m .
(Reference - letter dated 18 December 2007, submitted.)"
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/510/previous_minute_20_12_07_part_1
But sadly it's currently a bit underused so difficult to believe it's 'worth' replacing.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"
£1.2million of capital funding has been agreed for new cycling facilities at Hunters Hall Park. The facilities being considered are a regional track cycling facility, a bmx track, and a closed road loop. Consultation with local stakeholders will be undertaken in parallel with the technical process to design and build these facilities. Match funding will be sought from sportscotland and other potential funding partners.
"
Not sure what is the point of consultation "in parallel" with 'design process' when it's not even clear if there will be "match funding" to do the job(?)
Posted 10 years ago # -
"
During discussion about the 2013/2014 investment in cycling facilities, Cllr Booth took the focus back to Meadowbank questioning whether there were any plans to make the facilities indoor, rather than outdoor as it is as present, to reduce maintenance. Cllr Booth also wanted to know if there could be ways of reducing such problems at the proposed cycling hub at Hunter’s Hall Park in the future. The council officer replied that Meadowbank had received funding, but the infrastructure was of an age. The building will have to compete with other facilities for maintenance as the council is simply unable to ”maintain all the buildings all the time”. Hunter’s Hall Park unlike Meadowbank, would use concrete instead wood so should be easier to maintain."
http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2013/05/culture-and-sport-committee-approve-second-sky-ride
So it's just about what is easy to maintain??
Posted 10 years ago # -
I think Meadowbank's underused because they don't let you use it.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"I think Meadowbank's underused because they don't let you use it."
It's also difficult to find out who 'they' is.
No longer Edinburgh Leisure.
Was http://www.eastofscotlandcycling.co.uk which now seems to be http://www.estpa.org.uk
I've been told there is something on tomorrow, but don't know what.
Posted 10 years ago # -
One of the issues we had with waterworld was that it was near impossible to find out what was on there - the edinburgh leisure website was dire. and their website used to say really useful things like 'we're open x to x hours during the school holidays' and then not tell you when the holidays were. These may be obvious to parents with school age kids, but completely baffling to those with pre-school kids and/or foreigners. so, even if you knew it was Easter and it was likely they were open, you had to ring them up and say 'are you open' or check out the council website to find the school hols.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Comparisons with the recent Water World/Splashback saga is sadly necessary.
"
ESTPA is however concerned that the specification for the track may not be suitable for sporting requirements resulting in a poor return on investment for the City of Edinburgh Council. It has been reported that the track specification is a large outdoor concrete track. In Scotlands existing climate and with the future climate widely predicted to only get more extreme and wetter, such a facility would not only be unusable during much of the winter period, but is likely to be unusable for a longer period during the year overall."
http://www.estpa.org.uk/newweb/?p=678
Whatever your views on 'sport' it's hard to avoid the conclusion that CEC is more interested in 'high end'/elite rather than 'general user'/recreation/leisure - at least when it comes to the big money.
The main stadium at Meadowbank, the Velodrome and the Commy Pool were all built for the 1970 Games, reused for the 1986 Games (with some re-furbishment).
The CP has been done again because it was part of the bid for CG2014.
It's also hard to avoid the conclusion that CEC (and its predecessors) don't even do it well.
I think there needs to be scrutiny of land use (golf, allotments, MTB trails etc.) other outdoor facilities and buildings/sports centres and cost of provision/number of users etc.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Meadowbank Youth Track Omnium, 2nd June 2013
Racing from 10:00
(Other events - http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/track/article/trast-National-Track-Series-Standings)
Posted 10 years ago # -
I've always thought that elite level facilities were/should be provided at a regional/national level and that municipal facilities were for 'everyday' users. At least that is how it is done in Canada for the most part - with similar dynamics to here in construction of facilities for events, albeit those being provincial and national summer/winter games rather than international, at least where I grew up.
Had never really thought it through before though.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"
• The velodrome is available for hire for events, and training sessions by recognised groups.• There is no individual usage or public access permitted.
"
Posted 10 years ago # -
Posted 10 years ago #
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"
The City of Edinburgh Council 2 February 2012By Councillor Johnstone answered by the Convener of the Culture and Leisure Committee
What action is the Convener taking to ensure a long-term future for track cycling in Edinburgh given the issues surrounding the condition of the Velodrome?
Discussions are ongoing between officials of the Council, Scottish Cycling and the East of Scotland Cycling Association on the future of the six forms of cycling that need to be considered for Edinburgh and the wider east region: BMX, cycle speedway, cyclo-cross, mountain biking, road and track.
Scottish Cycling is updating its facilities strategy, originally published in 2008. The Council will give their revised strategy sustained and proper consideration and looks forward to participating in further discussions with them."
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/35145/minute_2_february_2012 p31
That's the conventional 6 (in alphabetical order) but ignores the more 'street' type activities - Saughton Skatepark, Transgression Park, Danny MacAskill style - also the various 'pump track' and similar facilities that are being built - largely by volunteers for 'no money'.
Need for a bigger vision? Not just 'sport'.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"All athletics tracks and swimming pools lose money," explained the university's commercial director Jon Greenwood. "I could see my business model would be more financially sustainable if I put cycling with athletics and with swimming.
"Cycle tracks elsewhere in the country make around £40,000 a year, which is about what it would cost me to operate the athletics track," he added. "For me, the tracks together would be a better business proposition than the athletics track on its own."
...
Plans are already afoot to extend the project to include a 250m outdoor velodrome and mountain bike trails, with the university hoping to begin the next phase of construction in the next 12 months.
"
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/538764/new-closed-road-circuit-unveiled.html
Posted 10 years ago # -
"
Overcast with chance of showers.. for 10 sodden years"
Maybe velodromes should have roofs!
Posted 10 years ago # -
And 'finally' a report.
Back where we always were - trying to fit things into the 'wrong' site.
Can't remember why the "cycling hub" had to be at Hunters Hall.
The consultants have observed "Consultation with stakeholders and cycling clubs revealed that there is little support for an outdoor velodrome".
So that seems final - NO VELODROME in Edinburgh when Meadowbank closes.
(Of course it's not clear who was asked or if the question was 'would you like a concrete bowl with shallow sides'.)
In contrast there is an "identified need" for a "closed road circuit".
Currently racing and training tends to take place at Ingliston. Some people don't think the surface is great - though better than a lot of real roads!
The main issue is that the course isn't always available. Whether an L-shaped track on the east side of the city is 'better' can be debated.
In addition, there is no suggestion that most people in the Niddrie area steal cars and motorbikes, race them and then burn them out - but some do...
The Council's report to the Committee says -
"
6.1 The development of a cycling hub is a priority action within the key element of the recently approved Physical Activity and Sport Strategy. This Strategy notes that: “With cycling being relatively inexpensive and walking being free, development work in both cycling and walking are cost effective and will make a significant contribution to the outcomes of this Strategy.” (From the Active Living section of the Strategy)."
Either this has been 'lifted from its context' or the authors of this report are just perpetuating (wilfully or otherwise) the general confusing of "activity", 'active travel' and "sport" from the previous report.
It's interesting to see that a new Cycle Speedway track is proposed. The 'Jack Kane' was one of several places in Edinburgh that used to have its own track. There is currently only one for the whole city (at Redbraes). The Jack Kane Centre has pioneered indoor speedway as part of a renewed interest in this cycle sport by several Edinburgh and Fife schools.
The plan for a "National competition standard" BMX is welcome as, in spite of being an Olympic sport, there is no track east of Broxburn. It is therefore desirable/necessary(?) to have several 'feeder'/local tracks. I am not aware of any developed plans to create these.
There is massive potential for a 'cycling hub' in the greater Craigmillar area.
ERC already uses Inch Park for training its Juniors in cyclocross. There is the fabulous indoor facility for BMX and skateboard 'skills' at Transgression Park. There have been MTB (and cyclocross) races around Craigmillar Country Park and great potential for developing this and the nearby Hawkhill Woods (a report was produced some years ago).
None of that is mentioned in the new report.
The Innocent Cycle Path runs through the area. If any 'cycle' (sport) developments are to happen it would be highly desirable for the existing path network to be improved.
Again, not considered in this study.
Once again CEC puts cycling in different boxes - sport, transport, leisure etc. and fails to take the necessary overview that might help the Council achieve its '15% of journeys by 2020'.
Posted 9 years ago # -
Related -
"Sport & Physical Activity Development Plan 2012-15" from Edinburgh Leisure"
"Five-year review of Let’s Make Scotland More Active A strategy for physical activity" from PAHA
Posted 9 years ago # -
Just to add a little with regards BMX Racing/track.
BMX Racing in Scotland is very much on the up, there's a severe lack of facilities on this country and particularly in the East and this would be an opportunity missed not putting a good quality track in.
This week coming Scotland has 7 riders competing at the world championships in Holland, aged between 6 and 44(all from the West of Scotland). To Qualify they need to travel all over England on a regular basis, this surly can't be right...
A new International standard track has just opened in Cumbernauld, (we were there today and they have put approx 400 riders through accreditation in 4 weeks!) and it's looking likely another track will be built in Glasgow, and in the East...
Feeder clubs to use a track?
Musselburgh Monarchs BMX Racing Club was reformed at the beginning of the year, we managed to the old track resurfaced and to a standard that would allow a club to grow and gauge interest.
It's going well, we regularly have 30+ on our practise nights (Tues 7pm onwards) and within a short space of time have about 10-12 racing at Scottish meetings.
Broxburn also have a club but like us the facilities aren't up to scratch.GB is second to Holland in rider numbers at the worlds this year, this is because of the number good quality tracks being built in England and the sports thriving from that.
BMX Racing is a commonwealth sport from 2016,Team Scotland?? without good quality facilities is unlikely anyone from this area will ever be involved.
Posted 9 years ago # -
mussbmx welcome!
Good to hear your club is going - again(?)
Was mentioned here a while ago, but then silence...
Is this still your web site?
http://musselburghbmx.wordpress.com
IF anything happens at HH and it includes BMX it WILL need feeder tracks, so good to have one fairly close.
But Edinburgh will NEED at least two.
Not sure that CEC is planning any.
Posted 9 years ago # -
We have just been using Facebook at the moment Musselburgh monarchs bmx.
Have a look it's an open group anyone can see.It would require feeder clubs, but there is a massive catchment area for a track..
BMX also has a great history in producing athletes for other disciplines, this sport gets kids cycling from 4-5 years old and provides skills than can use for all types cycling. the cyclists of the future, we may be a minority at the moment but it would be a mistake to forget us.
Posted 9 years ago # -
As seen on Facebook -
"
Not only does it look like that Meadowbank Velodrome will be lost but the promised replacement at Hunters Hall seems no longer to be in the plans.
The ‘consultants‘ have listened to the cycling community that an outdoor 250m track is not what is required but have concluded that this means that no track is required! But there will be a national standard BMX facility for which there are no riders in Edinburgh to use it. Yet again another vanity project which ticks boxes for Edinburgh Council and Scottish Cycling but fails to deliver anything that is actually required.
"
Presumably the report referred to will be coming to the Sport and Culture committee soon - as required here -
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
Richard Lewis (@RichardLewisSNP)
30/04/2015 13:39
@CyclingEdin @Edinburgh_CC @AndrewDBurns Report to build Velodrome, BMX and cycle speedway going to F&R Committee in May #CyclingHuntersHall"
Posted 9 years ago # -
"
The new skatepark is due to be built on the grounds of the current BMX track.
"
http://www.citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=14762#post-187568
If there is to be a '"national" BMX track at HH it will need 'feeder' tracks to get the best chance of it being well used.
Is there a city-wide strategy for sport cycling and the facilities to encourage/enable it?
Posted 9 years ago # -
Old news
"
The plans have been previously criticised by Edinburgh cycling champion Callum Skinner, who said Scotland’s rainy weather would force the open-air velodrome to close in the winter, rendering it useless for aspiring track cyclists.He urged the city council to follow the lead of Glasgow, which built the indoor Sir Chris Hoy Velodrome for the Commonwealth Games.
"
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/outdoor-velodrome-and-bmx-track-plans-backed-1-3630197
Anyone know how the Jack Kane/Hunters Hall developments are proceeding?
Posted 7 years ago # -
I heard they have applied for additional funding, the decision on this it due in December.
It looks like it still going ahead and the additional funding is more to do with surroundings, but time scale is roughly 12 monthsPosted 7 years ago #
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