CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

maintaining cyclist-empathy when not cycling

(24 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by wingpig
  • Latest reply from PS
  • poll: When I'm not cycling...
    I conduct myself as I wish other road/path users would conduct themselves when I'm cycling : (13 votes)
    87 %
    I tend to get carried away by access to effortless extra horsepower : (0 votes)
    I start swearing at anything which causes me to have to slow down fractionally : (1 votes)
    7 %
    I turn into an iPod zombie : (0 votes)
    I turn into a magic-sidestepping path-blocking dawdling codger : (1 votes)
    7 %
    I walk a dog using a telescopic lead : (0 votes)

    15 votes


  1. wingpig
    Member

    When you're not cycling, how does your attitude to cyclists change?

    If you're using or operating a form of full-lane-width motor transport, do you begin to perceive cyclists as selfish or obstructive if you consider them to be slowing you down?

    Do you always bear in mind how hard the cyclist must have worked to be where they are at the speed they're going at and that they have every right to be on the road and that just because slightly flexing your toes allows you to accelerate uphill into a headwind you don't have the right to try and oppress other road users who sometimes have to struggle at their maximal output just to maintain forward motion?

    When being a pedestrian, do you ever catch yourself falling into the classic carefree pedestrian trap of thinking it's OK to bimble randomly hither and thither across a path without looking over your shoulder or keeping your ears open for bells or pointed downshift-clicks?

    Do you always leave a cyclist as much room as you would leave a car when overtaking, if you HAVE to overtake, waiting until it's safe to do so and without driving right up the cyclist's bum until the safe opportunity arises?

    If you ever motorcycle, do you stay out of bus lanes during their hours of operation and stay behind the first stop line rather than sneaking into the red box at junctions?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. Min
    Member

    I don't seem to have any difficulty with not staggering randomly around on cycle paths or with looking round before I cross the road. I also don't walk into shop doorways and then just stop. It is just not that difficult and doesn't even inconvenience me to have some sort of mild awareness of the fact that there might be other people around in this city of half a million people.

    I don't drive very often but don't find overtaking cyclists that hard. At least in a car you don't have to try to keep your balance while slowing down and looking over your shoulder. Of course having move your foot from the accelerator to the brake when you would rather be going at the speed you desire is mildly inconvenient but then you constantly have to do that anyway for traffic lights, other vehicles etc.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I check ove rmy shoulder and do hand signals and everything before I step out :)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. Dave
    Member

    I think exposing yourself to as many modes as possible is very useful. For example, it's easy to find yourself cursing the peds (especially the dog walkers and kid strollers) on the Roseburn path who are getting in the way of your 25mph+ record descent to Leith.

    Then if you try walking on the same path you suddenly find yourself cursing all these c*** cyclists who treat the path as a racecourse and rocket past your elbow at even 15mph, continuously (keep a death grip on your children, heaven forbid someone on a bike might actually take their meandering into account).

    It's the same on the road. As a rider I have no problem holding back traffic in the most gratuitous and explicit of ways, but I also pull in and let it past *a lot* more than some cyclists do. I hope this is because I've also driven behind many cyclists who have gone well beyond "taking the space they need to be safe" into "it's more convenient for me to hold up everything than let it past" mode.

    I definitely don't get annoyed at cyclists who are ignoring a pavement 'facility' though, unless I had lots of experience riding it and knew it was universally preferable to all travellers...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. recombodna
    Member

    I'm perfect in every way! Except on a motorbike.........I just can't pass a double decker without jumping it!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. steveo
    Member

    My main bug bear with others is as a ped on shared use paths or the "no cycling " bits of the Meadows. When I'm out for a walk in like to think about things other than getting out of other than getting out the way, so having bells ringing and folk passing too close and too fast bothers me just as much as it does if some moron cager does it, even though I'm in far less physical risk its still..... rude.

    For this reason I avoid shared use paths generally on either transport, though I did have a wonderful ride along the canal on Thursday but at close to jogging pace....

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. kaputnik
    Moderator

    the "no cycling " bits of the Meadows

    If you've been following chdot's reports - these are now no-longer unofficially "no cycling" bits. By which I mean they've started burning off the "no cycling" markings.

    But I do agree with your sentiments. If you want to race on the bike, do it where there's space and it's quiet enough. Even better, join a road club and do it on the road :) Is it 9:40 yet?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. mgj
    Member

    Are we sure that its the council removing the no cycling paint? The bit on Jawbone walk has been chipped away, not burned off, and the signs are still up.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Are we sure that its the council removing the no cycling paint?

    I'll let chdot answer that one - I've only got his photos to go off of - but there's been definite marking burning over the other side.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    "Are we sure that its the council removing the no cycling paint?"

    Yes*

    "The bit on Jawbone walk has been chipped away not burned off"

    I suspect that the bit of the council that did it didn't have access to a blow torch and/or didn't want any more smoke in The Meadows...

    "and the signs are still up"

    Obviously no access to a ladder...

    The fact that Jawbone Walk was done first does seem a bit bizarre - though I suspect that (cycling on it) has received the most complaints - and CEC knows the signs can't be legally enforced.


    *
    "this is with the local (South) Parks department - they have been told which to remove (presumably all)"


    (LOTS still to do!)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. chdot
    Admin

    "definite marking burning over the other side"

    Not sure about that -

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. Min
    Member

    I probably worry less about what I do when cycling on shared use paths. Of course I use my bell and slow down/give way/say thank you etc but until people stop whinging about cyclists going too fast/too slow, ringing bells/not ringing bells, using the pavement/not using the pavement I know that just by being on a bike that I am WRONG and deserve to be killed and so don't lose sleep over it. So sue me.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. wingpig
    Member

    I'd avoid busy shared paths like the canal on a Sunday (or the WoL between Canonmills and Leith at dog-walk-o'clock or MMW during the Meadows Festival) if I'm wanting to get anywhere quickly but if I'm in no rush I'll use them politely and with much gentle nell-tinkling, in case someone's subconscious notices and tries to ameliorate their bile a little the next time they feel like commenting in an EEN story.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. splitshift
    Member

    I cycle, drive cars and big lorries, i walk into shops and have ,on occasion walked through a glass door.I even once ran along a pavement, no one saw me hence it wasnt illegall. My biggest sin however was clearly ommitting a question mark from the title of a post on a well known cycling forum.My right to bear arms is somewhat limited in this country however my right to travel in any mode/on any mode of transport I see fit is still maintained.My right to dissagree witha anyone is also maintained although has never actually been called upon, although some seem to think so ! A question, which clearly I did not know the answer to , seems to have branded me as a MOTORIST ! Oh well, my sense of humour is still intact !
    vroom vroom !

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. wingpig
    Member

    "... seems to have branded me as a MOTORIST"

    Who's branded you as a motorist, then?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. splitshift
    Member

    Ok, grammatical point taken......
    I feel perceived as a motorist ! please note, my sense of humour is still intact ! I should have titled the post....selfish cyclists ? clearly explaining that I was not inferring that the were , but merely asking if they were ! As I dont regularly live, ride or commute in our wonderfull capital city or its immediate surroundings, I find it difficult to understand why when a "perfectly good cycle way " is provided then cyclists still use the road, to which they have every right to do.It was pointed out that many may cycle on the road cause the "path" is rubbish. Ok end off. As a proffesional road user who could spout the highway code at about 13 years old, cause i wanted to drive (aaagh !) I do understand and appreciate many finer points of road use. Note the lack of definition of vehicle class ! Sense of humour still intact. I meant no disrespect, although my comment regarding "the its my right brigade" may have invoked some unittended blood pressure raising !
    Lifes hard enough,sorry !
    ps, nothing personal, you were just the person who replied ! still intact !

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. crowriver
    Member

    @splitshift "Pedal cycles" are I believe Class VII vehicles according to the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 (Thanks Anth).

    Once upon a time I was beeped at in a challenging sort of way by a young Northumbrian chap in a fancy jet black beamer (blonde girlfriend in passenger seat looking mortified), while taking prime position in the lane at the head of a queue of traffic on Waverley Bridge, on my way home after a long day. When I enquired what the problem was, he quipped "I was just giving you your right of way, wasn't I?"

    So I'm quite familiar with motorists getting defensive and resorting to their knowledge of the Highway Code. My apologies, but the fact that you refer to cyclists as "they" despite being a bicycle user yourself, does rather out you as a "motorist". Sense of humour not withstanding.

    Because bicycles are on the road by right (rather than license) they do not have to use the cycle paths provided, even if they are as smooth as a baby's bum. Impeding the progress of motor vehicles by slowing them down a tiny bit is not an offence, nor is riding on roads where cycling is not prohibited, regardless of cycle path provision nearby.

    Here endeth the sermon.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. gembo
    Member

    I could be wrong but as I interpret Splitshift's original point I think he is asking if we all use the roads together, barmy as this may sound, should cyclists where convenient to them not give way to motorists. Apologies if I have not got this quite right but in the example cited I can see what is being said. If there are perfectly good cyclepaths taking you where you want to go then apart from militantly asserting the cyclist's right to be on the road, you would be better off using them. Don't get me wrong - I use the cycle expressways through Stenhouse when it suits me and when it doesn't I cycle on the road beside the cycle path (which very occasionally gets a toot). Also when cycle lanes full of parked cars I will hold up the whole traffic for seconds whilst cycling in the outside part of the carriageway. I then come in to the pavement side to let the cars past when they can get through. Mostly this seems to work, some berks get irritated that they get held up for a few seconds but where else do they expect me to go? Also when ignoring the cyclepath in Stenhouse I am not holding anyone up as there is plenty room to pass, and the limit is 30mph. Also I am never going to cycle on Princess St just to prve a point as hunners of folk are falling off on the fecking tram tracks.

    Sorry if I have totally missed the point. However, just because lots of motorists are unreasonable does not mean that we should not take reasonable measures both ways - ie prime position where this makes sense and secondary when it would be reasonable to let cars past you. Maybe that is what everybody is saying, in their own way? Yours reasonably Gembo

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. Nelly
    Member

    @Splitshift -

    Paths v Roads - had similar debate with a friend last week as he 'paths' it along broomhouse, whereas I take the road.

    His rationale is that if a path exists, it is safer.

    Mine is basically that the road is quicker and not transitioning between the two makes me safer !

    I see cyclists switching on and off the path to road / go through lights if it means they save 30 seconds - and in the process perhaps annoy cars/buses etc.

    Doesnt mean you have to use / not use the paths, but for all vehicles a wee bit of common sense is really all thats needed.

    And that includes us.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. wingpig
    Member

    Who's questioned the integrity of anyone else's sense of humour, then?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. splitshift
    Member

    I at last detect a reinstatement of various senses of humour, ho ho ho !
    Now, on the union canal, surely the tow paths are for horses, errant pedestrians, never mind selfish speeding mud splattering, bell less and aggressive cyclists ( like me ! ) should clearly be on board the legally within their right to be there, canal boats which never seem to have a "traffic jam " !
    hold on while I take my tounge outa my cheek ! not to be misinterpreted as something from an entirely different web site !!!!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    Talking of canals -

    "ONE of britain’s leading transport commentators has called for an end to towpath “hostilities” between cyclists and walkers."

    http://www.islingtontribune.com/news/2011/jun/travel-expert-christian-wolmar-steps-regent’s-canal-towpath-row

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. crowriver
    Member

    @chdot From the article: "Minutes after giving an interview to the Tribune, Mr Wolmar’s bike was stolen.
    He had left it by a bench after locking the back wheel on Wednesday evening at around 6.30pm to walk along the towpath opposite the King’s Place bridge in York Way. Less than 10 minutes later, the bike was gone.
    Police have been informed. The large Dawes bike is described as silver coloured with a rack. The heavy-duty lock was taken with the bike."

    Doh! Not locked to an immovable object, eh?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. PS
    Member

    "Doh! Not locked to an immovable object, eh?
    "

    I've seen bikes locked to nothing more than themselves in a number of European capital cities and have been impressed by the trust displayed in the honesty of one's fellow man. It's a shame to say I can only assume that Christian Wolmar is a real optimist to do that in London.

    Back on topic: To my mind, it's all about empathy for others - if you're in a car, give cyclists space, if you're on a bike, be conscious of motorists and wave them through where appropriate. It's a two way street, but can't we all just get along?

    [Before ducking for cover] I would suggest that, in much the same way that people argue for motorists to have some experience of cycling in traffic before they get a driver's licence, it's probably a good thing for cyclists to have experience of driving (as the bard said, to see ourselves as others see us...).

    Posted 13 years ago #

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