CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Engaging with the enemy

(44 posts)
  • Started 12 years ago by chdot
  • Latest reply from ruggtomcat

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    Deliberately provocative heading!

    Curiously there are several topics this morning running on 'problems with motorists' and 'problems with ENews/Scotsman commentators' - or both!

    City plans to experiment with residential bike parking facilities

    There aren't many cyclists ergo we shouldn't do anything to encourage more

    Beeped and Swerved at this morning

    "Pedestrian-only plan for Fringe arena in heart of New Town"

    Gembo wonders if there's "any chance of turning this into a constructive way forward? I feel there is a palpable menace amongst a minority of Edinburgh drivers" (more)

    Cyclists Quote of the Day

    wingpig asks - "Where's the best place to enagage with these drivers? They're not on here as far as we know (continued)

    anth has done some engaging - "Hurrah! My comment got deleted!'

    There are some serious issues here.

    If/when drivers do 'punishment moves' or even just beeping 'cos there is a bike in front, it would be nice to think that the Police would be more willing to listen (and if possible act).

    'The Police' is like 'The Council' - organisations responsible for all sorts of policies and priorities, and not always (life rather than malice) pulling in the same direction.

    CEC has recently announced more money for 'cycling' and has shown some degree of seriousness in making life better for peds and cyclists.

    L&B Police are working (with CEC and others) on a 'cycle safety' campaign. First initiative due in April.

    Of course 'we' like minorities (we have to...) and no-one actually wants to shut down the local newspapers' gang of on-line wind-up merchants.

    But there are several issues here -

    I think it might be going too far to make 'cycle hate' a crime, but there are definitely people wanting others to think that bicycles shouldn't be on the road and wouldn't be worried if a few more were knocked over.

    The more things are 'done for' cycling the more there is likely to be a backlash - either of the 'what about spending on the motorist' variety or 'well they've got their cycle lanes/paths - make sure they stay there'.

    Of course 'we' hope the 'rabid motorist' types are an amusing (sometimes) minority - to be pitied more than feared. Clearly a lot of people on here drive as well as cycle so it's not as though there is some sort of 'eco-warrier' V 'normal people' divide.

    Politicians like to be seen to be doing what people want - sometimes it's going with the majority and sometimes it's helping minorities. In reality it's often more about doing what 'the party thinks best' or listening to the focus group, or lobbyist, or someone you met at a function or weighing the number of emails against your personal prejudices (etc.)

    On that it helps that people who cycle and contact politicians emphasise that they are not just 'cyclists' but residents of Edinburgh, parents etc. who would actually like slower speeds, less traffic, more people walking and cycling - a better balance between people who happen to own cars and seem to want to use them to the detriment of others and everyone else!

    So, perhaps, marginalise the bad drivers and their attitudes.

    In this, local press should/could be very active.

    Traditionally local papers are 'against the Council' - good copy, populist, sells newspapers (maybe).

    Papers are/have to be independent can't be the mouthpiece of councils, but they have at various times run campaigns 'for the city'. Perhaps the time is right for a campaign for a better, more liveable, City - which would involve nicer public space, better provision for people who walk (most people) and probably more encouragement to cycle.

    Having written all that I'm not sure I like the idea of rounding up a few errant drivers and talking them down the pub for a nice chat and a handshake afterwards.

    It'll probably be like seatbelts, drink-driving, smoking in pubs, driving while on a mobile - they'll all become less socially acceptable. Of course they all involve the law - but then so should more examples of 'bad behaviour' - it's Dangerous Driving - or perhaps 'without care and attention'.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. Min
    Member

    "I don't really see a way round it except that perhaps a whole list of cyclists targeted by the same few drivers presented to the Police might make them do something about it?"

    (copying myself from the Beeped and Swerved thread)

    Actually now that I think about it there is anecdotal evidence that lists/repeated pestering WILL make them do something about it as that is apparently what happens if you pester them enough about brick throwing yobbos trying to drown rowers on the canal. At least that is what I have been told.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

  4. wingpig
    Member

    It's hard to not attribute the aftertaste of the EEN comments to the editorial views of the newspaper itself. That said, there has been the occasional opinion piece with very similar tone once or twice that I wish I'd bookmarked, not that I'd be able to find them since the site changed. There's also that tendency to invoke inflammation in the choice of article titles. However, it's still our local newspaper and conceivably the simplest method of reaching a large number of city residents of all demographics (with a range of preferred transport methods (and differing degrees of vehemence in their belief that Their Way is the Right Way)).

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. There is the comment the police always make about why they crack down occasionally on cyclists, being that they are responding to local concerns.

    Maybe 'we' simply become a concerned local group and look at ways in which we can directly and legitimately engage with the police - providing them with, say, a monthly breakdown which can demonstrate to them either a particular place with a problem, or repeat offenders?

    I'm happy to collate (maybe set up a specific not-viewable-to-the-public thread?) and see where we go from there.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. wingpig
    Member

    "...which can demonstrate to them either a particular place with a problem..."

    This sort of stuff is also going to be handy when suggesting to the council where the city's cyclists might like the city's active travel cash to be applied.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    WELL!!

    "

    Matt Roper @mattjroper Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
    +1 “@milnemedia: Congratulations & good luck to @fodonnell23 as new Editor of the @edinburghpaper”
    19h

    David McCann @DavidJ_McCann Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
    RT @milnemedia Congratulations & good luck to @fodonnell23 as new Editor of the @edinburghpaper << Get my brown-nosing in early...
    15 Feb

    Alan Greenwood @agreenwoodesq Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
    Congratulations to new @edinburghpaper editor @fodonnell23 - brilliant journalist and all round good egg.
    15 Feb

    Martyn McLaughlin @MartynMcL Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
    RT @brianjaffa Frank O'Donnell - head of news at @scotsmanpaper to replace Tom Little as @edinburghpaper Ed
    15 Feb

    Brian Ferguson @brianjaffa Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
    Frank O'Donnell - head of news at @scotsmanpaper - to replace Tom Little - @Edinburghcc 's new chief spin doctor - as @edinburghpaper Ed.

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. Min
    Member

    "Maybe 'we' simply become a concerned local group and look at ways in which we can directly and legitimately engage with the police - providing them with, say, a monthly breakdown which can demonstrate to them either a particular place with a problem, or repeat offenders?

    I'm happy to collate (maybe set up a specific not-viewable-to-the-public thread?) and see where we go from there."

    I'm in. Lets get organised and start making the authorities listen.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. Darkerside
    Member

    Summary of suggestion made in 'beeped and swerved', but updated to give an actual proposal rather than just my ponderings:

    • As a short term measure set up a google spreadsheet to capture incidents where cyclists 'came into conflict' with other road users, including beeping, aggressive overtakes, collisions, general bad feeling
    • Google spreadsheets has a forms thing that makes entering data on the move (should one have a moderately modern phone) a doddle. Run an initial trial period to get the data fields right and see if uptake warrants putting a proper system in place
    • From this should hopefully pop out some useful information about repeated issues (drivers/locations/companies/infrastructure), as well as some statistics that people could throw into pro-cycling articles.
    • I'm not aware of anything else that would allow this type of data collection whilst remaining completely open to query, but if there is a suitable website definitely consider using that instead.
    • If the data does become useful, then a more effective database could be put in place. Google forms have a few failings that start to niggle after a while

    Thoughts?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    Meanwhile -

    "

    North Team @north_team

    You don't have to be hit for it to be hate crime. No hate crime is too minor to report to police. find out more

    http://www.lbp.police.uk/crime_prevention/personal_safety/hate_crime.aspx

    https://twitter.com/north_team/status/170115201163735040

    "

    Current banner on L&BP site!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  11. Darkerside
    Member

    Apologies anth, didn't mean to trample over your offer like that! Got distracted whilst typing, and suddenly all these extra posts appear...

    Would suggest a spreadsheet works better just for ease of data entry and analysis. Make the input form completely open access to anyone with the like (I'd tinyurl it or similar), and then distribute the 'view all submitted data' link as required. Need to check google permissions - I'm not sure if there's a view all the data but not able to edit option.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    Don't want to discourage any initiative - but are there likely to be enough people wanting to report AND who will know about something new (website/Google sheet)?

    There are existing sites eg -

    "

    Report bad driving

    Welcome to Stop SMIDSY, CTC’s online tool to report bad driving and help spread the word that ‘sorry mate, I didn’t see you’ just isn’t enough.

    http://www.stop-smidsy.org.uk/report

    "

    If the idea is local info, perhaps best to post here (without registration number) and email (with registration number) to volunteer collator??

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. Min
    Member

    I think it needs to be local. After all, a bunch of strangers who live somewhere else are very easily ignored.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. Stepdoh
    Member

    I used to work with Frank back in my early hack days, good chap, pretty serious, but did the Edinburgh beat for the Scotsman when he started at Barclay house so knows the turf well.

    May be good to write to him in a a friendly manner as a body corporate just to highlight the opportunities for cycling in Edinburgh, the benefits it actually has for our poor hard pressed drivers, and some of the red herrings the paper has a habit of throwing into stories.

    Hopefully make for a move away from the dog-whistle journalism that sometimes crops up at the moment.

    I know that is really the job of SPOKES, CTC et al, but there's something more pragmatic about this loose collection of people that would probably ring more true.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. Darkerside
    Member

    chdot, accept your concerns, but I would imagine that the vast majority of reports would be from people who read this thread anyway, so a new link (tinyurl.com/report or something) shouldn't present too much of an issue, and would avoid threads dropping off the homepage etc. It's also a right pain trying to collate any information from a forum (even lfgss's Rider Down threads are a drudge to analyse, and they're on a thread-by-thread basis in a fairly fixed format). You'd have to have some kind of standard template to copy paste, which is tricky to do unless you're at a desk, and the collator would presumably attempt to then draw those comments into a spreadsheet anyway. Cut out the middle man, straight from horses mouth, etc.

    That being said, I am Glasgow-based and therefore less likely than most here to submit anything to an Edinburgh incident list, so I wouldn't want to suggest a system that only I would find sensible!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    "I would imagine that the vast majority of reports would be from people who read this thread anyway"

    That's what 'worries' me - small sample of small sample...

    Some people have/notice quite a lot of incidents, most don't seem to - or they are just 'normal/trivial'.

    Some incidents get reported elsewhere -

    http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wife-vs-white-van-man

    Posted 12 years ago #
  17. Darkerside
    Member

    Don't see how you can get around that. It will always be a self-selecting sample of cyclists, regardless of the recording mechanism.

    So long as you're careful with the analysis, this doesn't necessarily cause too much of a problem. Clearly you couldn't say 'there were x incidents involving cycles in Edinburgh in the past y months', but you could say 'of incidents recorded, x% involved an artic' or 'vehicle registration ED12 345 was reported by 4 different people being a prat'.

    I'll mock something up this evening as a demo - will fuel debate if nothing else!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  18. We could always try and get some coverage of it in the EEN as a 'tool for cyclists'. ;)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  19. wingpig
    Member

    Not just for cyclists: it's often possible to observe cyclists being bullied whilst being a pedestrian and it'd be much easier to whip out a smartphone and record an event whilst standing on the pavement.
    Stickers with QR codes on street-furniture-posts? Wee bits of paper with QR codes tucked into the gap between brake cable and top tube?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    "I'll mock something up this evening as a demo - will fuel debate if nothing else!"

    Good.

    "We could always try and get some coverage of it in the EEN"

    Yes, plenty of possibilities.

    It will be interesting to see if new editor likes Edinburgh or 'smooth traffic flow'...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  21. wingpig
    Member

    "It will be interesting to see if new editor likes Edinburgh or 'smooth traffic flow'..."

    Maybe depends how they travel to and from work. I've often wondered if the Scotsman's attitude to travel and transport changed when the office moved away from the bus-route-tastic North Bridge...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  22. cc
    Member

    Ultimately the only way to remove this trouble is to redesign the roads so that bikes and motor vehicles never come into conflict in the first place - as David Hembrow says.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  23. Min
    Member

    "I'll mock something up this evening as a demo - will fuel debate if nothing else!"

    Good idea, thank you. The only way to find out if something is going to work is to try it!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  24. Morningsider
    Member

    A very interesting thread - however, some of the ideas seem a tad labour intensive. How about inviting the editor of the EEN and/or some of the more vocal commentators to cycle commute in Edinburgh - possibly accompanied by one of us. Would create some good copy, not too much effort and may even change a few minds. For balance, we could then accompany the commentators on their daily car commute - comedy gold I reckon.

    Obviously, I can't actually see any of the EEN commentators agreeing to this as it may expose their legendary driving skills to some criticism, let slip a lifetime's resentment that their dad never taught them to ride a bike and give us the opportunity to seduce their spouses.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Kaya Burgess (Times) (@kayaburgess)
    2/16/12 5:49 PM
    During #cyclesafe, the vitriol drivers have displayed towards cyclists has been astonishing. And can lead to this - http://bbc.in/A94sLR

    "

    (link to bus driver story http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5326)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  26. Nelly
    Member

    Morningsider - that has always been my dream, to get the non-cyclists of the press to try it for a while, even one morning.

    Would be great if they sent one of their pup reporters out for a week as a cyclist - however, we assume that they dont have any commuters already which may be off the mark.

    Either way, maybe worth asking the question - stepdoh ?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  27. Darkerside
    Member

    You should hopefully all be able to access this form. Shout if not!

    That's an example of how it could be done via a google form. I've added what questions I would use, but clearly they could be changed. Few key bits:

    • Anonymous seems best to me for this. Similarly I haven't included a date option (although the submission of the form is timestamped). Partly as the form doesn't have a date picker (grumble...) and also because I think it's the incident detail we're more interested in.
    • Sharing morningsider's concern that as soon as it becomes hard work to complete people don't bother, I've included a compulsory multiple choice bit that takes about 20 seconds, then an optional, free text 'more details' part. This approach has generally worked ok for me in the past
    • Feel free to submit made up information whilst playing - if we want to go forward with this the I can blitz it beforehand
    • The link is hardly snappy - there's an 'embed in webpage' option which I haven't played with before, plus tinyurl, QR codes, etc.
    • You won't be able to see any of the automatic graphical analysis until there's some dummy data in, but the submissions are compiled here
    • One of the key benefits in my mind is being able to complete it fairly easily on a touchscreen smartphone (either via the googledocs app, or straight through the web address)

    Thoughts?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  28. wingpig
    Member

    The exactly-when could be relevant if there's any escalation and the question of accessing nearby local CCTV is raised...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  29. wingpig
    Member

    Perhaps "cobbled" option for the road surface...
    Excellent work.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  30. Min
    Member

    It looks pretty good to me. You are right to try and keep it as simple and easy to fill out as possible.

    Perhaps "poor weather" for the last set of options since lashing rain could be a factor but is not the same as "wet road". Or maybe just an "other" with a box to enter any factors you thought might have played a part.

    Posted 12 years ago #

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